Dog Behaviour Question: What is play?

[Karen]

So we have two Mini-Schnauzers and a Schnauzer mix in the house right now and they love to play together, but sometimes it seems to get out of hand.

Scruffy is the toughest and usually the instigator (but not always). He often gets his teeth on the ears and beard and today even the legs of the other two. I say "gets his teeth on" because he doesn't chomp down, but sometimes (again, not always) it really bugs the others. He does spend as much time licking their faces... speaking of which, Chin Chin is trying to hide under a blanket right now to get away from Scruffy's kisses. Such a charmer!

My question is, how much play biting should I allow? Should I cut off any teeth action at all, or only when it seems to get out of hand? I don't want them to stop playing, but I don't want him to scare other dog owners in the future.

[Piotr]

Well, Karen, my advice is to give Scruffy a hundred new toys and lots of tasty treats :O

Hmm, seriously, though, I think you should somehow limit his play biting. At the same time I know that if the other dogs really do get pissed off Scruffy will be aware of it.

[Karen]

When they make him aware of it, the house shakes with all the loud swearing in Schnauzerese. Three together gets REALLY LOUD!

OMG, the house is filled with toys already! Scruffy always wants whichever one the others have (then more noise), so I think I should do the opposite, take most of the toys away.

We've decided to use a spray-bottle of water to curb the play-biting. For now I just have to use my instinct is to how much "play" is their limit. I'd really like to hear what other multiple-dog families allow :?

[cyrax]

Hello Karen.
How much play biting is enough? In your current situation they can play as long as you want them to play. If one of them actually bites the other hard enough you will hear a squeal. That is when you should stop the playing. I would actually be worried about Chin Chin just in case Chin Chin gets too scared of the other two.
I do suggest that you do not allow your dogs to play with humans this way. Especially kids.

[pukka]

My dogs are small and loud , very loud when they are playing .
Not only the teeth towards each other but also the scary
loud sound they are making .

They can play fighting as much as they want - the moment one
is crying , i am calling LOUD the name of the one who causes
this . The one who is really wild .You give this dog a time out .
It works very well in my situation . This way you let them know
that you are still the boss

Otherwise , if nobody cries , let it be . Play is as long as nobody gets hurt .
Here is how my kids are playing :rolleyes:

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m46/Pukpics/WibiPukkafreak.jpg

Dogs are smart , they usually know how to play with people and how to
play with their own mates .

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u54/Pukka-album/Pukkawibi.jpg

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m46/Pukpics/HimaWibifun-1.jpg

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m46/Pukpics/Pukkawalk3.jpg

[Wibidad]

Wow Pukka- your dogs look like real psychos! ;)

[pukka]

http://www.hondenhuys.nl/forumsmilies/s19.gif http://www.hondenhuys.nl/forumsmilies/JNbloem1.gif

[Karen]

Thanks for the tips, cyrax and pukka! Wow! those pics depict exactly what is happening here (I mean with the play biting, not the mooning :) ) I will show these pics to my dad, who is starting to coddle Chin Chin because he thinks Scruffy might hurt her... Funny because she used to treat Sage just like Scruffy treats her: like her own play-slave. Scruffy's the youngest

Anyway, we've started to yell (I don't know how to spell this noise) or NO! when a) it gets too loud/intense or b)when a pain-squeal occurs (most often a. though) and then either both dogs look at us like "What??" and they quiet down, or Scruffy will start the licking-ears business! (pretty cute, but maybe a sign of a guilty conscience). Sometimes it's hard to tell which one did the big-biting so we haven't done time out, but next time I know the cultprit I'll try that.

There is a no-tolerance policy of play-biting humans. Unfortunately, it seems this is a bad habit Scruffy developed in the past. He does get his mouth on people's hands, not an angry nipping but in play. In that case we react immediately with a No! and stop the play. Sometimes I'll add a schnauz-grab in there, too.

My mom is worried that the play biting among themselves is causing the play biting of humans (let me emphasize that there is no biting down or leaving marks on skin, it's just mouthing). Apparently Chinnny play-bit my mom once recently and had never done that before Scruffy entered the house...

What's up with that?

[cyrax]

If you do not like what your dog does say "NO!" in a deep voice with eye contact. Do not yell. Do not take the name of your dog. The name should be associated with good things not bad ones.
Also, if you see the dogs squeal put yourself between the two dogs and face the one that did the biting. Stare straight into the eyes and do not look away till your dog backs off. You could walk towards the instigator. One test of whether it is just playing or dominance is if you try to take the toy away from the dogs, they should just let go and not "fight" you. If they do that it is not just playing anymore for them.

[pukka]

I do communicate with my dogs and cats by using their names
in many ways .
This is the best way when you have more than 2pets .
Dogs are smart ,they hear from your intonation when the
name is used sweet , or when it is a command to stop . I do yell .
Not often because they don't often behave this way .

I don't think that the dogs Karen mentioned are really doing something
bad like being really mean . I recognized what she described , they
are trying the limits from time to time .
As long as you keep an eye on them , they should be OK .

[Karen]

Thanks for your help, Cyrax and Pukka.

No, the doggies weren't doing anything really bad. Actually, I think I was forgetting that they needed to figure out their little hierarchy. The first couple of days Scruffy was even protective of Sage a little bit, stepping between her and Chinny. Now that we're in Montreal with Sage and it's just Chin and Scruffy to play, and now that more time has gone by, I think everything is really fine. If it gets too noisy (which is not to say too rough we now know) my mom can just say Hey! and they stop and look bashful (her voice is stern and loud, I was afraid of her when I was little, shhh don't tell).

My mom and Chin Chin did obedience class together last fall, I think some of it is wearing off on Scruffy because he follows her actions.

This photo was actually from BEFORE Sage, Eric, and I moved out, but I think there's more of this type of play going on now with just the two of them:

Chinny and Scruffy on the sofa:
http://i14.tinypic.com/5zqy8so.jpg

[pukka]

That is too cute ! :-)
Is Chinny a bit bigger than Scruffy ?

[Karen]

Oh yeah, Chin Chin is a REALLY big girl now. Almost 9kg up from 6.8 when I found her. Vet says she's perfectly healthy, she's not at all fat but her fur makes her look really big. She's solid.

Scruffy is under 7kg, he's also gained some weight since Piotr found him. Mom brought him to the Canadian vet for the first time last week... said his once-broken leg will never bend again, but he's very healthy too.