French Bulldog - Heart Issues

[Soulflexin]

So I just got some very disappointing news.
Vache has been diagnosed with congenital heart disease.
His heart is massive and has a constant murmur.
He could live to be 10 years old or he could have total heart failure
tomorrow.
If you haven't yet, I would find a different, preferably more knowledgeable,
vet in Daegu before you do any more adoptions.
This is a serious and easily detectable thing which should have been done before he was pronounced "healthy"
because he never will be.
He has to be on medicine for the rest of his dying days and that's something I really would have liked to have been informed about before taking him in.

[Kia]

OH NOES! That's terrible news. :(

Poor baby. I don't want to alarm you, but just a heads up - if you're planning on flying him overseas I would check now with a vet to see if he will be up for it. Just don't want it to come as shock if it's an issue and you don't have enough time to make other arrangements. I'm no vet, so I really have no idea one way or the other. Can't hurt to ask just to be safe.

He looks like a tough little guy, though. With the right treatment he may live a long, happy life, and at least he will be well loved and cared for.

No matter what happens, he will have a better life than in the shelter and I'm sure he's grateful for that.

[adoptbullies]

.
This is a serious and easily detectable thing
How is this detected?

[Soulflexin]

By feeling his chest.
Even I knew something was off when I held him.
You can put your ear up to his chest and hear something not right, no stethoscope required.
It obviously takes a bit more to find the exact problem but by merely putting your hand to his heart area you can feel it murmuring constantly.

Kia, I did ask if he would be able to fly and they said it was VERY unlikely since his case is moderate-severe.

So, technically he really doesn't have a forever home yet because I can't take him when I leave. And to be perfectly honest, I am not able to financially support the care of a sick dog like him.
The expensive part is over, and it cleaned me out, but I still don't have the means to keep up with his medicine and other aspects of his care. Someone needs to think of something to do about this, and fast because I really didn't sign up to get all of this dropped in my lap due to carelessness/irresponsibility.

Kind of a real messed up situation we have on our hands here.

[Wiemann]

Is there something that would have caused this or is this something a dog is born with?

[annie]

By feeling his chest.
Even I knew something was off when I held him.
You can put your ear up to his chest and hear something not right, no stethoscope required.
It obviously takes a bit more to find the exact problem but by merely putting your hand to his heart area you can feel it murmuring constantly.

Kia, I did ask if he would be able to fly and they said it was VERY unlikely since his case is moderate-severe.

So, technically he really doesn't have a forever home yet because I can't take him when I leave. And to be perfectly honest, I am not able to financially support the care of a sick dog like him.
The expensive part is over, and it cleaned me out, but I still don't have the means to keep up with his medicine and other aspects of his care. Someone needs to think of something to do about this, and fast because I really didn't sign up to get all of this dropped in my lap due to carelessness/irresponsibility.

Kind of a real messed up situation we have on our hands here.

Hi there,

I just want to say that my dog has the same and he was able to fly.Once they get medicine, it helps fast. It cleared all the water he had in his lungs (after only 1 month of medicine). Also, the medicine, in Canada, cost about $1 a day, so it's really not that bad I think. You can even get it for cheaper as you can get them from a pharmacist (with a prescription from your vet). I know that all the testings and all just cost you a lot, but in the long-run, it's not that much....

Also, I know you feel angry and disappointed, but nobody here is a vet. We have to trust what the vets tell us. I know it's upsetting and totally understand, but please don't take it out on people who tried to help and trusted what they were told.... :S

[Soulflexin]

Well then it's obviously time to find a new vet.
One that isn't completely negligent.
This is the responsibility of the agency to have a competent vet that can fully inform them of the status of the animals.
And he doesn't have water in his lungs, when did I ever say that?
I said he has congenital heart disease, which means he has an enlarged heart,
almost twice the size of a normal dog. This pinches his aorta so not enough blood gets to his body. Since not all of the blood needed gets pumped away from the heart, it either stays where it is or migrates to another chamber. This will eventually cause clotting. Yes, we should trust what the vets tell us...if they're qualified. My vet is highly qualified so, I trust when they say that flying him would most likely kill him.
* In short, there is no way I can keep this dog. *
So if anyone out there wants him please let me know.
I have another appointment for his ears next week and if no one gets back to me by then, I will have to ask them what I should do.
Sure would hate to throw him back into a shelter situation.

[lcavegirl]

Now adoptbullies can correct me if I'm wrong....but in a situation where the animal comes from KAPS and can no longer be kept by their adoptive family, he/she must be returned to them. This is their policy.

I'm sorry that this has happened to you, but there's no point snapping at people who are trying to help. Annie's dog also has the same problem Pierre does...and she was able to fly him. Obviously what you end up doing in the end is up to you....but sometimes going to a few different vets can be a good thing. It would be the same if your heart were acting up...would you go to one Dr. and take their word at face value....probably not..you may go to 2 or 3 Dr's.

Again, I am sorry that this happened to you. Suggesting that KAPS gets a new vet could be a step for this to not happen again. I hope everything works out best for Pierre in the long run.

[adoptbullies]

I have another appointment for his ears next week and if no one gets back to me by then, I will have to ask them what I should do.
Sure would hate to throw him back into a shelter situation. Andrew you signed a contract stating that if you chose not to keep Pierre you would return him to KAPS. You do not have the right to rehome him. When you return him, I will do my best to find another foster home for him so that he isnt returned to the "shetler situation."

Your other concerns I will address after this post.

[adoptbullies]

He has to be on medicine for the rest of his dying days and that's something I really would have liked to have been informed about before taking him in.

I can understand your frustration. But you must understand that our foster homes pay for vetting out of their own pockets. And the only thing they are required to do is get a basic exams and vaccines. Otherwise, we would have far less foster homes available, because not everyone can afford the cost of full work-ups. Our foster homes cannot afford to run all the extra test. Now if an adopter wants extra test or has extra questions we do follow-up with our vet.

An example we recently had was before an adopter committed to adopting a cat he wanted the full test run to see if she had FIV and leukemia because he had 2 other cats at home and did not want them to catch anything. He had also experienced a pet-death shortly after buying a kitten and wanted to avoid the same. He sponsored the test and everything was done before he made the final decision to adopt .

Which several times you did ask extra questions and we did follow-up, one I remember is his patella. None of us are vets, and none of us can afford to do a whole work-up on every foster animal, therefore before you adopt if you would like more information or more thorough test then you must ask for it to be done.

Now no one wrote here on his page that he was pronounced healthy. The only two comments about his health (minus the ones you asked directly) are:

Health status/ vaccinations: appears healthy, vaccines will be the adopters responsibility


On Sunday, December 26th, we began fostering Pierre, the French Bulldog. We're currently looking for a loving, warm forever home for him, and we're happy to share some updates concerning his health.


Pierre is up-to-date on his vaccinations.
After testing, he has no heartworms!
He's a bit underweight, but he has a very healthy appetite and he's slowly but surely putting on weight.



Along the way, before you ever came to Daegu you had information at your disposal. And you are the one that went ahead with the adoption. You can not lay blame on the agency, the shelter, or the foster home.
By feeling his chest.
Even I knew something was off when I held him.
Kind of a real messed up situation we have on our hands here.

It is a really messed up situation because of two reasons. One you were informed before you met him that the vet suspected an irregular heart beat and you did not ask for more test. In fact you blew it off:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: A. <XXXXXX@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 10:38 PM
Subject: Re: Pierre-meetup times?
To: Foster home <XXXXX@googlemail.com>


Alright, well, I sure hope it's nothing!
Yes I am still interested in coming down on the 12th. Is there a certain time that would be better?
Morning or afternoon? I believe I will be staying the night in Daegu because I don't like being rushed
with this sort of thing. Hit me up!



On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 10:24 PM, Foster Home <XXXXX@googlemail.com> wrote:

Hi Andrew,

Pierre is doing a lot better today. I think I should tell you, though, that when we took him to get the surgery, the vet said that Pierre's heartbeat is a little irregular. He said it isn't usually an issue, especially because he's so outwardly healthy, but because of the anesthesia, the vet ran a blood test. All of his other levels (liver, kidney, etc.) came back in the "normal" range, so the vet said he seems to be fine. He doesn't seem to think it's any kind of serious issue, it just was yesterday due to the surgery.

Are you still interested in coming on March 12th? Let me know what you think. We'll need to make a plan relatively soon, because we'll have to make sure Nicole is available a well, should you decide that you want to adopt him for sure.

Best,


Second, if you felt it when you held him, and you had any doubt then when I asked you "do you want to finalize the adoption?" Why did you say yes? Why did you not ask to go to the vet first, or at the least delay things?

I understand your frustration, but it sounds like you are blaming the foster home/program for not having a vet as qualified as yours when it is not their fault. In fact without them, Pierre would have died in the shelter. They fulfilled their responsibility to the fullest. Which again is only basic vetting --the heart problem was noticed during a basic exams, and it was called to your attention-you chose not to address it further.
Additionally, in the shelter they recieve basic care which is stated publically: http://www.animalrescuekorea.org/index.php?pageid=kaps Our foster homes are volunteers. They do not work for KAPS, and therefore there is no way to have a centralized vet. Many of our foster homes are spread out around Korea. Many of the fosters in Korea are new to rescuing and they do the best they can so

perhaps it would be helpful for you to write up an article for future adopters and post it here on ARK. The article could help explain all the health concerns that can come with adopting, and all the questions an adopter should ask beforehand. This would also help a foster home follow-up with their personal vet by providing an outline from which questions can be formed. Again, most fosters in Korea I have found are new to rescuing and this would be of great help. ~

If you would like to discuss further options about Pierre, you are welcome to email me. Adoptbullies@gmail.com. Or call 010-7671-5683

[annie]

Well then it's obviously time to find a new vet.
One that isn't completely negligent.
This is the responsibility of the agency to have a competent vet that can fully inform them of the status of the animals.
And he doesn't have water in his lungs, when did I ever say that?
I said he has congestive heart disease, which means he has an enlarged heart,
almost twice the size of a normal dog. This pinches his aorta so not enough blood gets to his body. Since not all of the blood needed gets pumped away from the heart, it either stays where it is or migrates to another chamber. This will eventually cause clotting. Yes, we should trust what the vets tell us...if they're qualified. My vet is highly qualified so, I trust when they say that flying him would most likely kill him.
* In short, there is no way I can keep this dog. *
So if anyone out there wants him please let me know.
I have another appointment for his ears next week and if no one gets back to me by then, I will have to ask them what I should do.
Sure would hate to throw him back into a shelter situation.

Hi again,
I know you didn't say your dog had water in his lungs. My dog has the exact same thing your dog has and it was so bad that it filled his lungs. That's what I'm saying. But I'm also saying that the meds he is taking are so efficient that it cleared in one month. I was trying to let you know that some meds and vets really are good, and the dog can get a good life.

Then, how would we know if a vet is competent or not before mistakes are made? It's hard for people to know that. The foster home tried her best....Each foster pick their vets, and we can only make suggestions and then look back....

I hope you understand and good luck~

[adoptbullies]

Andrew all in all, I am here to work with you for Pierre's best interest.

Your options are:

1. Return him to KAPS, they will gladly take him back.
2. Wait to see if medicine helps and get a second opinion.
3. Foster him until another adoptive home comes along. That way you can continue to help Pierre with a vet that is qualified.

I am willing to help you Andrew and Pierre in anyway I can. Please know that you do not have the right to rehome him on your own per the contract you signed.

You have my contact information and will look for your answer in the coming days.

[Soulflexin]

Is there something that would have caused this or is this something a dog is born with?
Sometimes they are born with it. Other times they acquire it from injury or infection.

[kmwg19]

Hi Andrew, Sorry to hear about Vache. I feel this site on Congestive Heart Disease (http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2096&aid=3584) may be helpful to you and maybe ask Annie if she could be a personal resource as her dog has the same issue, and she was able to fly her pup home.

I agree with other posters that seeking a second opinion, though you trust your vet, it may be revealing and will help you as you give Vache the best care possible.

I hope that you reconsider relinquishing your adoption duties - it seems Vache would be quite a lucky pup to have a "dad" who obviously cares so much about dog health, as well as a "twin" brother to play with. After signing an adoption agreement, one states they will care for the dog for the rest of the dog's life. Sometimes that life is not what one expects... If you do decide, however, that Vache would be better off in another's care, know that KAPS will do all they can for you and for Vache and that the ARK community is simply here to help and support. Thinking of you and Vache, and Beans too!

[adoptbullies]

Annie,
Do you know if the recent changes in his enviroment can exasperate his condition? In other words, in his foster home the vet only found an irregular heartbeat, but all of his test showed nothing to be alarmed over.

So is it possible that all the playing with his new very active twin brother, could have made his condition temporarily worse, that his adopter's vet found his condition to be more serious than the orginal results? . Is it possible the changes made his condition more prominent?

~thanks in advance for your help.

[Soulflexin]

Annie,
Do you know if the recent changes in his enviroment can exasperate his condition? In other words, in his foster home the vet only found an irregular heartbeat, but all of his test showed nothing to be alarmed over.

So is it possible that all the playing with his new very active twin brother, could have made his condition temporarily worse, that his adopter's vet found his condition to be more serious than the orginal results? . Is it possible the changes made his condition more prominent?

~thanks in advance for your help.

No, this is a lifelong problem.
The fact that this vet only found an "irregular heartbeat" AFTER surgery
is only more of an indication of negligence and malpractice.
Also, second opinions won't really make me feel any better about it since I already take him to the most advanced, most professional clinic in Korea...their opinion is second to none.

[adoptbullies]

Also, second opinions won't really make me feel any better about it since I already take him to the most advanced, most professional clinic in Korea...their opinion is second to none. No one is trying to make you feel better about it.

How do you know they are the most professional clinic in Korea and the most advanced?

[annie]

Annie,
Do you know if the recent changes in his enviroment can exasperate his condition? In other words, in his foster home the vet only found an irregular heartbeat, but all of his test showed nothing to be alarmed over.

So is it possible that all the playing with his new very active twin brother, could have made his condition temporarily worse, that his adopter's vet found his condition to be more serious than the orginal results? . Is it possible the changes made his condition more prominent?

~thanks in advance for your help.

Yes, it can.

Just as for my dog, it started with an irregular heartbeat. Then a murmur. Then, any stress or big event can make it worse. Then the heart gets enlarged and all that follows....

**Some dogs are born with heart murmurs, some develop them. The grade (there are 6) can go up very quickly, but can't go down...Timmy got stressed with the flight home, so we had to get a higher dosage of pills for a month, but then we went back down to his regular dosage. However, his murmur didn't got down, only the symptoms and the heart disenlarged a little. We have to monitor. Any stressful period makes him cough meaning that fluids are passing where they shouldn't...

Congestive heart failure can also be congenital or caused by something else (the murmur for example). It's usually hard to tell which one came first, but having a murmur first is more common.

So yes, it's a lifelong problem, but it doesn't mean that the dog was born with it. Most of the symptoms around the issues can be controlled, giving the dog happy years.

If the dog hasn't started having syncopes when he is excited, it's a good sign.

[Brown]

I am not saying the diagnosis was wrong, but I think you are placing rather too much faith in Dr. Pet. Many have had positive experiences there, others have not (and I am referring to problems with misdiagnoses and treatment, not how personable the vets there are or how well they communicate with clients or patients). A second opinion is ALWAYS a good idea for something serious. There are other qualified vets, including cardiologists, in Korea. University vet hospitals are usually the most sophisticated, not local vet offices.
To help us best help Pierre, it would be useful if you could elaborate on the tests already done to diagnose his condition and the results thereof.

[adoptbullies]

Just as for my dog, it started with an irregular heartbeat. Then a murmur. Then, any stress or big event can make it worse. Then the heart gets enlarged and all that follows....

If the dog hasn't started having syncopes when he is excited, it's a good sign.

So it is possible that during the time in his foster home the vet only found an irregular heartbeat, and it became a murmur when he went into his adoptive home.

hmm, ok what are syncopes?

[annie]

So it is possible that during the time in his foster home the vet only found an irregular heartbeat, and it became a murmur when he went into his adoptive home.

hmm, ok what are syncopes?

Yes, it's possible...Plus, if the grade was really low, it's really hard to tell. If it became worse, it became more apparent.

What is syncope?
"Syncope (SIN'ko-pe) is temporary loss of consciousness and posture, described as "fainting" or "passing out." It's usually related to temporary insufficient blood flow to the brain.

It most often occurs when the blood pressure is too low (hypotension) and the heart doesn't pump a normal supply of oxygen to the brain."
- From the American Heart Association

[lauraallover]

No, this is a lifelong problem.
The fact that this vet only found an "irregular heartbeat" AFTER surgery
is only more of an indication of negligence and malpractice.
Also, second opinions won't really make me feel any better about it since I already take him to the most advanced, most professional clinic in Korea...their opinion is second to none.

I'm just wondering here, but are you a vet, or did you just randomly decide that this MUST a result of "malpractice and negligence"? I'm also wondering if you've been to every vet in Korea? Funnily enough, I had a friend who put her dog in one of the "best boarding places in Korea" and they let the dog get run over by a car, and lied to her and told her the dog was alive, and it was at the shelter waiting for her, even though the dog had ALREADY BEEN CREMATED. Guess what? People make mistakes and people miss things. It's really not that hard to get a second opinion, and the fact you're so unwilling to do so says a lot about you as a pet owner.

The fact that you're placing all the blame on other people but yourself is also pretty disgusting, as anyone can plainly see in your email you 'hoped it was nothing' yet you knew it could be something. Like Nicole said, if you felt something wrong "straight away", then why did you go through with the adoption? You failed to answer that.

As a foster for KAPS, I feel really insulted for the foster family that you leg a lot of blame on them. They're fostering the animal, putting money and time into a dog that is not theirs in hopes of giving him a happier life, and all you're doing is complaining that it's not good enough for you, when you were well informed beforehand that there WAS an irregular heartbeat. As an owner of three cats and a dog, I could never IMAGINE giving up ANY of them because of something a vet said, or because a treatment was expensive. I'd get a second opinion, and then find a way, ANY way, to make sure my animals could come home with me no matter where I was in the world.

When it comes down to it, you're not even looking for options, you're looking for an excuse. Annie, I think, has already told you she has flown her dog successfully, but you're not even looking for a second opinion, or to help this dog and find out if you can in SOME way be his forever home. I may be out of line here, but I find that extremely sad and almost pathetic.

You also have no right to re-home him, as Nicole said. You signed a contract, if you can't make the promise to be his forever home, at least keep the promise to give him back so he can hopefully find someone who will fight for him.

[Wiemann]

Laura,

I completely agree with you! We have 6 furkids all rescued in Korea, one had distemper (spent over 1,000 dollars in one week on treatments), one with hip problems and had to have surgery, and one with skin problems. We knew when we rescued them that they were bound at some point to have issues and were prepared to help them. We also knew that it would be expensive to bring them all home and 2500 dollars later, it was worth every penny. I don't know how someone can adopt a dog and then give it back becuase of something that's not even the dog's fault. If the person isn't able or willing to take care of the pet now, what will happen when the other gets sick in the future? Will he be put down? Or given away? I just feel bad for Pierre, as he's the innocent one:( Hopefully get gets the meds he needs and get a home where this isn't an issue:)

[lauraallover]

Laura,

I completely agree with you! We have 6 furkids all rescued in Korea, one had distemper (spent over 1,000 dollars in one week on treatments), one with hip problems and had to have surgery, and one with skin problems. We knew when we rescued them that they were bound at some point to have issues and were prepared to help them. We also knew that it would be expensive to bring them all home and 2500 dollars later, it was worth every penny. I don't know how someone can adopt a dog and then give it back becuase of something that's not even the dog's fault. If the person isn't able or willing to take care of the pet now, what will happen when the other gets sick in the future? Will he be put down? Or given away? I just feel bad for Pierre, as he's the innocent one:( Hopefully get gets the meds he needs and get a home where this isn't an issue:)

I wish more pet owners were like you! What I find sad is this guy isn't even attempting to do anything, and it's neither the dog, the fosters, or KAPS' faults. KAPS does a wonderful job at letting every adopter and foster know that there could always be potential issues, and that you have to be ready and willing to tackle these. I'm sad that this guy has not only defaced KAPS reputation, but also fosters as a whole because of his own negligence!

If my dog had CHD, I know I'd be researching, researching, researching! I'd be talking to vets, seeing what my options were, as well as starting my dog on medications as soon as possible. I'd be asking pet forums, asking Yahoo Answers, and asking here. He knows there are options, he knows it can be done (again, look at Annie) but this guy just doesn't care to make an effort at all. The dog is now suffering for his laziness, because he doesn't want to take, what? an hour? to go to a vet and ask "Hey, what are my options?"

My mum had a dog that had lung issues, was going blind (had diabetes) and was deaf, and she never stopped fighting for that little dog. In fact, my mum and step dad coughed up 2,000 of their holiday money to get the dog corrective eye treatment, along with paying for medications for insulin and the lung issues, etc. The poor thing eventually had to be put down by the time she was 14, but she had a GREAT life thanks my my mum!

What bothers me more than anything in all of this, is Andrew blaming the foster's and KAPS, and refusing to take any responsibility. His know-it-all attitude isn't helping much, either, when all anybody is trying to do is help.

[Soulflexin]

Congenital
It's congenital heart disease.

[annie]

Well, you said congestive at first. So do you mean that the enlarged heart is congenital in his case? How would they know he was born with it? Plus, does it make a difference in the treatment? It would be good to know for the following adopter.

[lauraallover]

Congenital
It's congenital heart disease.

You really need to get over this desire to be right all the time and address the real issue here. You're not taking responsibility for your own part in this.

[Brown]

Soulflexin,
Can you please post a list of the tests Pierre has had in relation to his heart since you have had him in your care, and what the results were (eg x-rays taken to measure the size of his heart, blood chemistry tests that indicate heart failure, such as elevated creatine kinase levels, and whether his kidneys have been affected etc).
The more that is known about his current condition, the more we can help him.

[red dog]

I really hesitate to post, but this thread is very upsetting.

First, the fact that the problem is congenital isn't much information to go on. Also, these situations are unpredictable even where humans are concerned. I've had several human relatives die very suddenly of heart attacks--no one saw it coming, including their doctors.

OTOH, my sister's cat had a heart murmur as a baby and she was afraid he might not survive neutering. He did and is still alive almost 12 years later. My foster dog Snoopy was supposed to have been healthy enough to fly, but he died only two days later (heart failure). I can see that Seoulflexin has absolute faith in Dr. Pet, but any vet's opinion about how long an animal will live and whether he/she will survive a flight or medical procedure is no more than a guess.

My dog is older and has heart disease. When I first took her home as a foster, I had just started a new job and wasn't planning to stay in Korea long-term. Fortunately, my job worked out and I was able to settle down and adopt her. I wouldn't take the risk of flying her out of the country now--even if war broke out or there was an earthquake or nuclear disaster in Korea, I'd have to find a way to stay here because she needs me. If I lost my job, I'd have to take a crap job to support her. It's very stressful because now she's getting sicker and needs more vet visits, more tests and stronger medicine ... I love her and want her to live forever, but I also live in a constant state of panic because it's such a big responsibility. I put off adopting for years because I didn't want the stress and worry but now I have a little angel at home who is completely dependent on me--I worry about her all day, every day.

I guess my point is that both adopters and rescue groups need to keep all these "what ifs" in mind and screen or self-screen accordingly. Whenever an adoption doesn't work out I think it's partly the adopter's fault, but also partly the fault of whoever approved the adoption. I hope Pierre/Vache will be all right and can keep his new home.

[Brown]

Congenital
It's congenital heart disease.
No, you are confusing two different but possibly related things.
The condition you describe (enlarged heart, murmur) is characteristic of congestive heart failure. CHF may be caused by congenital heart disease (ie a heart defect with which the dog was born) or may be an acquired condition (eg caused by, inter alia, heartworm, heartworm treatment, bacterial endocarditis). Many of the causes of CHF are impossible to diagnose, and congenital ones are especially hard to diagnose in an adult dog whose history is unknown. From what you describe, it seems that Pierre has moderate-stage CHF (he has no fluid in his lungs or abdominal cavity, no cough that you have mentioned, no exercise intolerance) and that the etiology of his condition is unknown. Dr Pet suspects congenital abnormality (though on what basis I can't tell from your posts).

Regardless of the cause, the symptoms at this stage are manageable. I realise that you have already made a decision to surrender Pierre/Vache, but as I have already posted, the more information you can share about the results of tests done at Dr Pet, the sooner and more effectively WE can help him.
I sincerely hope that you will endeavour to put his best interests first and be more forthcoming about the diagnostic process instead of simply berating his former carers. I understand your disappointment, but we all need to do what is best for Pierre.

[Soulflexin]

You really need to get over this desire to be right all the time and address the real issue here. You're not taking responsibility for your own part in this.

I love how any forum no matter what topic ignites confrontation :D
Brown, are you a vet or a google pro?
Either way, I will post all his tests and whatnot Monday after I have his next visit.

[lauraallover]

I love how any forum no matter what topic ignites confrontation :D
Brown, are you a vet or a google pro?
Either way, I will post all his tests and whatnot Monday after I have his next visit.

There is a confrontation because you're being incredibly rude to people who are only trying to help, and give you options. Point is, see a second vet, get a second opinion, ask questions, and if you really can no longer keep Pierre, take him back to KAPS.

[kmwg19]

Andrew, Did you know the information Brown provided? Googled, researched, studied, or otherwise, it may be helpful.

Which is what we want to do... help Pierre! I am sure we all look forward to hearing more information and facts on Pierre's condition so we can help him the best we can.


Hey all, if possible, let's network for this needy guy and try to work something out for him. I will post on Waygook.org tonight - any other places? I can try homebrewkorea ^^ not sure if the homebrewers are looking for pups, tho they are based in Seoul... maybe I'll find one willing to help. Either way, let's get the link to his new foster profile (http://www.animalrescuekorea.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5642&highlight=pierre) up and posted and see what we can do for him!

[Brown]

Andrew, did Dr. Pet ever test for heartworm or do a chest x-ray or ultrasound? If you have been following Pierre's new thread, you would have seen that he has heartworm which would have been easily detected on a simple blood test and should have been one of the first lines of investigation. Likewise, an x-ray or ultrasound would have been needed to determine the extent of Pierre's heart enlargement, in which case the worms would have been seen. If none of these tests were done, for the sake of the dog you are keeping, you might want to re-think that 'second-to-none' opinion and find another vet. Having state-of-the-art medical equipment is not the same thing as having a good vet.

[Soulflexin]

Andrew, did Dr. Pet ever test for heartworm or do a chest x-ray or ultrasound? If you have been following Pierre's new thread, you would have seen that he has heartworm which would have been easily detected on a simple blood test and should have been one of the first lines of investigation. Likewise, an x-ray or ultrasound would have been needed to determine the extent of Pierre's heart enlargement, in which case the worms would have been seen. If none of these tests were done, for the sake of the dog you are keeping, you might want to re-think that 'second-to-none' opinion and find another vet. Having state-of-the-art medical equipment is not the same thing as having a good vet.

No, they didn't test for heartworms because, again, the KAPS vet did heartworm testing and came out "negative" so I told them they didn't have to do a test again. He had an X-ray and an ultrasound and ECG. Dr. Pet is emailing them to me today so I can send them to Kia. In response to finding another vet, I wouldn't dream of it. It's not only the equipment that impresses me it's their expertise and professionalism. They even suggested that he come back to the vet so they can take him in and care for him because they have a heart specialist which is what he needs. In any case, whatever ends up happening, they recommend that the new owner come back to Dr. Pet monthly for heart checks, free of charge. Find another vet that cares that much.

[Kia]

Here's what I've been able to piece together as to the mystery of how this has all come about. Like I've said before, I'm not a vet so I can't be 100% sure of anything. However, I've talked with mine extensively and have pretty much been doing non-stop research on heartworms since this is my first dealing with it.

First, he may have just had heartworms all along. False positives can happen, but are extremely rare, but false negatives happen much more frequently. This can occur if the worms are too young, there are too few for the protein to be detected, or for some reason all the worms are male around the sample because the test only picks up female antigens.

After his X-ray the vet said that she suspected heartworms. You usually can't actually see the worm unless it's really advanced. Pierre's is roughly at stage 2 out of 4. They can usually only be seen in an X-Ray at stage 4, but symptoms will be very obvious then, even without an X-ray (fainitng, shock, death). However, she did see damage that appeared to be symptomatic of heartworms and a congenital heart defect. So, his heart was much bigger than it should be for having asymptomatic heart worms, but the already damaged heart with heartworms present could account for it's massive size. She asked if he had been tested and I honestly had no idea. I told them run the tests to be safe. It came back positive.

Then, just to make sure, they ran an ultrasound. Again, you couldn't actually see the worms, but at stage 2-3 that's standard. She pointed out that the valves and heart walls had been damaged and hardened in a way that made her believe that the test was accurate. Now, it's also possible that it's from his pre-existing heart disease, but that would have more than likely caused him to either have died a long time ago or be showing severe symptoms. Obviously, he's still alive and there have been no reports of him showing symptoms (fainting, stunted growth, lethargy). So, although there's no way to be 100% certain that the tests is accurate without surgery, it seemed more than reasonable for me to assume so. We talked about surgery as an option to rid him quickly, but his liver is also very, very damaged. Putting him under would have been just as risky or perhaps more dangerous than giving him the heart worms meds even if there's the .01% chance that they are unnecessary.

It's unfortunate that Pierre is having to go through this. However, I totally understand how it's happened. Looking back, I don't know if I would have had them run the test if I had know that he had one done at KAPS. I may have just said, "yes, it's negative." My vet may have accepted this and diagnosed him with only a heart condition or she may have been more insistent in doing the heatworm test. No one will ever know. I could have passed him on with a heart-worm free bill of health and it may have never been caught.

It was literally a moment of ignorance on my part, that I'm not grateful for, that caused it to be detected.

He should be getting his second immiticide injection at this very moment. The next 24 hours that he spends trying to cope with the medicine will be the most critical part of the treatment. I'm going to go see him directly after work and will keep eveyone updated on his condition. I'm also off tomorrow, so I'll try and spend as much of the day as possible with him to keep his spirits up. I was a bit worried that because we've just met, I'm not much comfort for him. But, when I went to see him Sunday he immediately recognized me and started whining and pawing on the cage. He also rested (comically, as he's kind of big) in my lap, begged for treats, and sniffed my other dog who came to visit. That made me feel like spending time with him may help him stay strong, which is comforting for me.

Now all we can do is wait and hope for the best. I'll post as soon as know more!

[luvadog]

hmm, ok what are syncopes?
Cardiac syncopes:
http://heartdisease.about.com/cs/arrhythmias/a/Syncope1.htm

[hamish&mandy]

Kia, Hamish and I just got through with Bambina's heartworms (and she was a pretty bad case) so if you need any support let us know!
It's extremely important that he doesn't pant.

[sarah24]

Hey,

Long time no talk. :P

I would just like to let you know, if you have any questions about congestive heart failure I can tell you a lot about it - i'm an expert on the subject. (;

My senior shih-tzu was actually diagnosed with congestive heart failure more than a year ago, the vet wasn't very optimistic about the subject and told us that her situation was very severe. Now, almost a year and a half later, she is CHF-free (almost) ! Although her heart will forever be enlarged, her murmur has gone from a stage 5 to a 1. I would like to think that it was a lot of all natural food (low sodium), change in medicine, and love.

We began to notice the change in her behavior and activity when we started feeding her all-natural food, like Innova Senior. Sadly, the brand was bought by Proctor and Gamble... so i've stopped buying the brand and have switched to Grandma Lucy's all natural food. (: We also changed her medicine from the "regular" meds to a new brand that had been recently imported to Korea - Vetmedin. The medicine is very strong though, so it should be used sparingly and gradually... When symptoms seem to lessen, we took her off of it. (:

After being diagnosed by 4 vets with having CHF, Fionna has been diagnosed down to only having an enlarged heart but no more murmur. She's happier than ever. And she's just like a puppy now. (: I hope this helps.

[Brown]

That's incredible! But I'm with you all the way on the importance of diet - one of my dogs was supposed to die of kidney disease about 5 years ago according to every expert we consulted (and we saw quite a few), but she's still here (16 years old!) and not on any meds. Is Fionna not taking any medicine at all now for her CHF and are you giving her supplements like fish oil or CoQ10?

[Brown]

First, he may have just had heartworms all along. False positives can happen, but are extremely rare, but false negatives happen much more frequently. This can occur if the worms are too young, there are too few for the protein to be detected, or for some reason all the worms are male around the sample because the test only picks up female antigens.
He probably did have heartworms all along as the disease takes months to develop and show up on tests. It's also possible that the first test was not an antigen test, just one for the microfilariae (baby worms) and if he had been treated with preventatives, there wouldn't be any microfilariae, only adults. Also if he doesn't have that many worms there wouldn't be many microfilariae and the test could miss them. The antigen test you describe is much more accurate, but as you say even then there can be false negatives.
Sounds like Pierre's case is a lesson to us all to ask which heartworm test is being done and never to assume a dog with heart issues is heartworm-free until all avenues have been thoroughly investigated given the prevalence of the disease in Korea.
Fingers tightly crossed for Pierre. Sounds like he is getting outstanding care :)

[sarah24]

Hi Brown,

She is not taking ANY medicine, what-so-ever. She takes supplements, occasionally, from the Natural Pet Store which is supposed to have all sorts of supplements mixed into one. We also mix up her food every now and then with different meat protiens so that she gets all sorts of vitamins. Right now she's on the lamb mix, next bag to open is the Bison mix, hopefully she'll like it. (:

[Kia]

Hey Sarah!

Glad to hear about Fiona!! You know I want to dog nap her.

I'll have to talk to you about what you feed her, specifically. You know I feed my dogs "crazy homemade food" anyways. I know some people think I'm nuts, but I just can't argue with the results that I've seen. No more ear infections, skin infections, and they all have softer, thicker, shiner fur than ever. Soju had both ear and skin problems constantly before making the switch. I've always had Marcel and Darwin on it, so they only thing I can note as a change is how nicely their fur has grown in. Marcel is still dumber than ever, but I don't think that's his diet. ;)

They're all on a pretty sodium free diet anyways. Plus, they're all on an all-organic, Non-GMO as humanly possible diet. Their food is supplemented with plenty of flax seeds, oatmeal, olive oil, and nutritional yeast all of which I hear is good for heart heath and anemia. Just to be extra-sure that they're getting all that they need I add some natural balance dog food to the mix because you never can be too careful. They are, honestly, annoyingly high energy.

I have a few more days to research before Pierre comes home with me, but I'd be willing to bet that what I already make can be easily modified to fit his needs.

Commercial pet food, in my opinion, is bad stuff. I try to stay away from it as much as possible. I've actually just finished a book on the industy and the things they are allowed to get away with (euthanized shelter animals with flea collars still attached, stryofoam packaging, moldy grains that are known carcinogens, cancerous tumors) just blows my mind. Even my cats get food with a base of organic chicken and brown rice, and they are thriving from it.

hamish & mandy -

thanks. if I have any questions I'll throw them your way.

[Kia]

I just got back from visiting with Pierre. For the first time I feel positive! He didn't really seem sick or down at all. He jumped up when he saw me, walked out of the cage, took a stroll around the office, sniffed some stuff, peed a lot, and then just layed beside me for about 45 mins. He was alert to things going on around him, but not panicked or tense.

The vet showed me his new blood test results and they are really encouraging. As I said before, there's a liver enzyme that should be around 87ish. Well, Saturday his were up near 1,000. Today, they had dropped to about 650! This is great news because he's much more likely to tolerate all the medicines that will help prevent blood clots and protect his lungs. The vet actually said to me "i really think he's going to be okay." All his other ezymes and such were coming back closer to normal range, too.

I don't want to get anyone's hopes up, as I know that he's not yet in the clear by far. He could have sudden complications like bloods clots, heart attack, etc... However, he's definately showing signs of improvement.

He's a bit anemic, but that's common among heartworm patients and I was told that this can be treated with simple dietary changes once he's feeling a bit better. His appetite is still really healthy and he's eating four times a day! Apparently (I just learned this today) he should be fed a lot and often because he's using a lot of energy just pumping blood. Many dogs will lose their appetite, which is obviously not good. He certainly does not that have that problem. I'm going to make him some banana and oatmeal cookies tomorrow and go and spend the afternoon with him.

I'll post again if I remember anything else or when I have new info.

So happy tonight!!!

[luvadog]

Andrew, did Dr. Pet ever test for heartworm or do a chest x-ray or ultrasound? If you have been following Pierre's new thread, you would have seen that he has heartworm which would have been easily detected on a simple blood test and should have been one of the first lines of investigation. Likewise, an x-ray or ultrasound would have been needed to determine the extent of Pierre's heart enlargement, in which case the worms would have been seen. If none of these tests were done, for the sake of the dog you are keeping, you might want to re-think that 'second-to-none' opinion and find another vet. Having state-of-the-art medical equipment is not the same thing as having a good vet.

No, they didn't test for heartworms because, again, the KAPS vet did heartworm testing and came out "negative" so I told them they didn't have to do a test again. He had an X-ray and an ultrasound and ECG. Dr. Pet is emailing them to me today so I can send them to Kia. In response to finding another vet, I wouldn't dream of it. It's not only the equipment that impresses me it's their expertise and professionalism. They even suggested that he come back to the vet so they can take him in and care for him because they have a heart specialist which is what he needs. In any case, whatever ends up happening, they recommend that the new owner come back to Dr. Pet monthly for heart checks, free of charge. Find another vet that cares that much.

In defense of Dr. Pet and KAPS, sometimes HW does not show up initially. There was one dog shipped to another country that this happened, and they showed HW as soon as they arrived. They were checked out at MARI, which many people trust as well.

If the dog previously had HW and has taken HWP, the microfilaria have been removed from the blood but could be in the haert already. If they are not at a spercific stage in the heart, they might not show up on x-rays or the tests. In rare cases, there can be only one HW in which it will not show up on a test either.

And as stated, Soulflexin had specifically requested that the test not be done.

Everyone just calm down. Soulflexin, I think your anxiety stems from the fact that you care so deeply and are scared to get attached to this dog and watch him die. It's tough when you want to do the best and run out of money.

Dr. Pet has graciously offered to take him in and give him all the necessary tests and treatments. How can you resist an offer like this? You are out of money. Give it a try, please! The other option is to return him to KAPS, but they have been known to PTS certain dogs they deem unadoptable. I believe in Dr. Pet. They would try their best, they have the equipment even American vets can never afford (MRI's)(CT scans). Plz take him back to Dr. Pet.

[Brown]

You know I feed my dogs "crazy homemade food" anyways. I know some people think I'm nuts, but I just can't argue with the results that I've seen......
I have a few more days to research before Pierre comes home with me, but I'd be willing to bet that what I already make can be easily modified to fit his needs.
Commercial pet food, in my opinion, is bad stuff. I try to stay away from it as much as possible. I've actually just finished a book on the industy and the things they are allowed to get away with (euthanized shelter animals with flea collars still attached, stryofoam packaging, moldy grains that are known carcinogens, cancerous tumors) just blows my mind. Even my cats get food with a base of organic chicken and brown rice, and they are thriving from it.


Great to hear that Pierre seems to be recovering so well from the treatment.
I totally agree about the pet food - I am a 'crazy home-made food' person too. I think you're right, just a little tweaking of what you already feed your animals will probably work fine for him. All three of my dogs are on the same diet as the kidney girl, give or take a few supplements and marginal variation in proportions of certain foods. My kidney dog is doing outstandingly for her age - her kidney values have actually improved, yet the 'experts' at a renowned US vet school picked 'miracle' (their words, not mine) over diet as an explanation for her survival and recovery. (Of course most of their research is funded by IAMS.......)

Luvadog - Pierre is already in foster care with Kia and getting the treatment he needs. He doesn't have to go back to KAPS or stay at Dr Pet.

[luvadog]

Who's the vet now? What is the cost of treating him?

[Kia]

He's with me now. His whole story is in the other thread "Pierre needs you this week."

His heartworm treatment has begun and he's over the most dangerous stage. He's at Petopia in Jamsil. It's a 24 hour animal hospital. He has the sweetest vet who sleeps in the same room with him and comes in on her days off to check on him/meet with me.

After the heartworms are taken care of and his liver recovers I'm going to see exactly what needs to be done about his heart. He does have some kind of heart defect, although it's hard to tell the extent of it with the heartworms present. I'm going to compare test results from Dr. Pet and my vet and then decide what to do from there. He'll go to whomever I feel is most capable of taking the best care of him.

His treatment has cost about 800,000 so far and there will still be additional tests and boarding fees, so it will probably be over a million when it's all over for this round. It's been taken care of, so don't worry about that. He may need additional treatments. The two heart conditions and liver problems combined complicted things a lot. If the medical bills start getting out of control, then maybe we will try and figure out a way to raise some of it. But, for the foreseeable future it will be taken care of. So, let's just focus on him getting better right now.

[sarah24]

Like I said, I think CHF is in fact treatable, with the right food, time, medicine, and love. I feed all my foster dogs and even Fionna only natural foods. If you haven't heard of Grandma Lucy's brand, it would be a great idea to take a look at it. They are a bit expensive, but in my opinion, is worth every penny.

One of the things I feared most when I found out that Fionna had CHF was the fact that all four vets said she could live out her full life or maybe even die today, none really gave me hope... Because her condition was so horrible. They said her heart was in such bad condition it'd be impossible for her to fly or anything... but now, she's just like a puppy. Loving every second of life. Although her heart is still enlarged her murmur is nearly gone and her heart beats just like any other dog's heart. The vets were really amazed when they couldn't hear the murmur anymore, and I was just happy. (:

Another situation I saw, but didn't end so happy.. was Lanell.. She did end up passing away, but I noticed a change in her diet, love, and short strolls, helped boost her immune system. At one point, the vet suggest she wouldn't probably live the night, then the next day when I came in for her visit, her immune system had bumped up so high! The vet was extremely amazed and suggest I do what I had been doing. Sadly, the disease took over quicker than I could save her and she passed. ):

All i'm trying to say is that, if your pet is happy, so is their health... That's what i've noticed, in all of my fosters! To name a few more, even Crystal and Jang Gun. They both came with some sort of health problem that all cured over a shorter period of time than that vet would have imagined. (:

[sarah24]

Grandma Lucy's Food:
http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/products/Grandma-Lucys-Grain-Free-Freeze-Dried-Dog-Food/427024.aspx

What I use to top off Crystal's food (she get's NewMan's dry food but is topped off with Stella and Chewy's):
http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/products/Stella-Chewys-Raw-Dinners-Freeze-Dried-Dog-Food/300038.aspx

We also get sweet potato chews, only sweet potato no additives from the same website, they're a bit hard to locate, but are def. worth the money. (:

[Kia]

I always make my dog those sweet potato chews. You just slice them about 1/2 inch thick and dry them in about a 100 C oven for 90-120 mins. They LOVE them. All the sweetness gets concentraed in them and they go nuts.

[luvadog]

Are the sweet potatoes cooked before drying them, or raw? Do you have to peel them first? I have a dehydrator and always looking for morehealthy snacks like this. I give mine, apples, bananas, carrots and oranges too. My chubby yorkie loves oranges and since I always restrict her diet because of her weight, I like to give her a few of these things. She's always hungry.

Are you in Daegu or Seoul? Which vet are you using? She sounds awesome. Maybe you could share her information on the vet listing resources.

[Kia]

not cooked. i just peel them and throw them in the oven until they are pretty dehydrated. you can make them kinda crispy for treats or leave them a bit more moist for a mock "rawhide."

I'm in seoul and my vet is "Petopia" in Jamsil. I found them by accident. I got a shelter dog late saturday who was covered in ticks. They're a 24 hour emergency clinic and have Sunday hours. My regular vet was closed and I wanted to get him treated immediately. I was so impressed with how good they were I started bringing all three of my dogs and my cats. I still go there now that I've moved an hour away.

[luvadog]

Sounds like that would be a good one to list on here. Everyone should have access to a 24 hr vet for emergencies.

Thanks for the info on sweet potatoes. I'm gonna make some. I love my dehydrator.

[Kia]

Sure. I'll list it tomorrow when I dig out their card so that I can find their number and address. I'll also post the name of the doctor I've been using. They're all good, but I like this particular one the best. She's so kind and you know she really cares about the animal's health over anything else.