Dog on dog agression? and a few other ? for advice

[cleoandbuffy]

Ok... here i am with another brandy problem... * sigh* starting to feel like a really crappy owner here... lets start with good notes from those that have been keeping up to date... 1 brandy and the rabbit threshold... doing much better... i had to go in and out of the room a few times today and didnt think to crate her which i normally do when im taking care of "bunny"... she stood at the door... i had to tell her back/no a few times but she didnt get all antsy like normal so were becoming a bit more farmilliar... it will still take lots of work but hopefully we are finnally going up the hill instead of down it! so doggie + critter is a :) at the moment.... small steps!

anyways, the biggest issue at hand currently.. .is every time brandy sees another dog.... she wags her tail... yey! occasionally a bark... but once a dog is within x ft ( different each dog/time!) she suddenly growls! some times she will let another dog sniff her... well she did in the begining... tonight on the other hand was a compleatly new thing and shocked the blazes outta me :mad::( on a bit of back story of the last week... my one neighbor doesnt always leash her dogs ( the rottie and the white... i wanna say jindo mix) when other dogs/people arent outside... shes always there and normally they do laps.... they are very sweet dogs and good with others so i can only grumble a bit.... shes met both dogs ( both bigger males ... i believe fixed... yes brandy is fixed) and not really gotten along the greatest with them... the first time was 2 days after being here... not realizing i had a new dog/she cant see where we were when she opened the door.. the white dog came out and happily sniffed brandy as the rottie loved on my 4 year old (shes farmilliar with big dogs so she only laughed and pet him.... im glad hes friendly!) well she snipped at him... i instantly tugged her leash and told her to sit and stay, she did meanwhile her tail wagged the whole time.. the dog bothered her again as the lady tried to get cnotrol of her 2 decent sized guys... with my daughter next to me i was having hard enough time to try to keep everything under control.... the white dog didnt get within a foot of her before she tried to snap again... dogs went inside... end of drama...

a few days later... we met outside again.. this time all parties were leashed! we walked over ( no kid) and tried to introduce at a few feet distance... her tail wagged for a moment.. her dogs were happy to try to play ( amusing watching the owner try to control both large dogs! i felt bad for her tho) and dispite 3 wagging tails.. suddenly,, without touching or anything other than playful cues from the boys... she growled and snapped towards them, wanting nothing to do with them... ok....she doesnt like them... we can deal with it... but the probem is that its EVERY dog here she doesnt like... the only dog shes slightly gotten along with.. aka didnt snap... is the min pin upstairs... and he wasnt a fan of her ( hes a scardy dog and so bigger dogs make him nervous... we just happened to meet in the stairwell) our neighbor has a dog next door... ( was glad to hear she was once a pound dog back in the states) and it appeared friendly for a bit... we were both petting both dogs ect.... then suddenly she growled and snapped towards her... making the other dog growl and bare teeth... luckily once again no contact ( very lucky have yet to make ANY contact... a blessing amongst the doggie chaos) needless to say i just kinda am taking a back door approach on things and saying " if we see a dog out in the lot... we will try to introduce, making sure other owners know she hasnt gotten along well with others)

now onto tonight... i was taking brandy out this evening... and as i opened the door the owner of the rottie and 'jindo' saw me and warned me they were out running ( yey! im so happy she gave a warning!) i picked up brandy to avoid confrontation with an unleashed dog... figuring it would keep from any pestering and give her a safe distance... i guess i was majorly wrong... i rarely pick her up so i dont want to think of it as a thing of her getting 'power' but that could just be me not thinking... i know some will agree and others wont on that... but shes snapped at these dogs twice now... well she went almost cujo in my arms... luckily she didnt turn towards me.. but before the dog was even 5 ft from us she was growling and snaping and trying to get at him! he wasnt making a noise and just trotting happily towards us like " whats the matter?" ( please imagine that with a big, lovable rottie face... it really was) out of fear of getting bitten i quickly put her down, leash on short/lock ( yes its a flexi lead... when not pottying its on short or double length of short depending on location) she didnt stop on the ground, i was doing circles around her with the leash up so she couldnt get ground... trying to keep the rottie and her seperated... i dont want blood! i ended up nudging the rottie with my foot in his chest... i felt bad but i was not about to stick fingers into the mix! he seemed to not care and backed up a bit and his owner leashed him... i put her in the car that was nearby to cool off alone while i went to make sure all was well with him and owner... all ok... but it just amazes me... it just gets worse dispite doing what i was told as propper socialization... aka on leash ( except the first accidental time) always on neutral ground ( i can only imagine the dozens of dog smells out there as there are at least a dozen dogs in the 6 building complex) and always repremand with a very stern "brandy no!" ( i have kids so she hears no a lot... so i always include her name and she seems to get the point any other time)

according to what Ada has told me during the time she fostered her... that she was always decent/good with other dogs.... weither it was on walks or in the same room... i also know she was very attached to Ada.... which makes me think that this isnt protective sense i was loving on the one dog as well as her and it didnt matter... not to mention she hasnt been here all that long. im not ready to give up on her yet... but its frustrating that i cant take my kids with us to go for a walk or outside in fear of another dog being in the area... its one thing if i got cought in the middle.. it would SUCK but it could potentially kill my children... not something im willing to risk

over all she is a very sweet dog... we have a few things to work on around the home front with her ( aka not refering to outside forces) aka rabbit... which is on the uphill.... her not trying to be in my face... also slowly but on the uphill.. trying to snatch food off the table... isnt going so well but i try not to leave anything out... she is still crated when the kids eat... but unless i need to put food on a surface while eating... she does fine with my eating food... so i guess thats a yey on that one... she doesnt always like to sit/stay but shes starting to get the point that im not joking around as i just keep making her sit/stay when i try to make her... ive even ignored my kids ( in safe environments) to get the point thru to her... for 2 and 4 they are very paitent children.. and she is a very paitent dog.... the kids enjoy brushing her... and do a good job too and she lays around handling it like a champ as the youngest occasionally brushes in the 'wrong' direction lol. shes started to bark at the door... and other than me having to say no... a few times to get her to stop i dont consider it a bad thing sense it isnt excessive... the seperation anxiety seems to go well.. i have the unfortunate joy of getting to wait 10+ min for a cab to show up and she only whines for about 5 before settling down :) she is learning to sit to get leash on/off, sit before entering ( mommy walks in first... always) as well as exiting... theres more but this is getting really really long... im sure you're all bored by now.. i guess the over all point is the ups and downs are all there.. but the downs are all being worked on slowly becoming better but this one.... and i dont know how to handle this one any differently.... i have no doubt in my mind if she was to attack one of the smaller dogs she would most likely fataly injure it... and well if that was the case :( id put her down.... i hate the idea as she has become a part of our family... and if she got into a fight with one of the larger dogs... i forsee her being the one badly injured... and i wouldnt say anything to the owner except im sorry... providing she was the one that turned the meeting angry and the other dog chose to protect itself... there are a few of the dogs around here ( neighbor) whose is bigger and furrier... ( only about a head bigger) and is willing to try to work on meets regularly to let them get more accustomed to it but im nervous about forcing her into it for the reason of injury or even more dislike... ive never had/met a dog that truely did not get along with any other dog while they were friendly... and with 12+ dogs in the close vacinity... its something that needs to be handled some how...

help... i want her to work out here... badly... shes great with the family... and human neighbors... we dont want it to turn into a bad situation! not to mention with so many dogs around i do not know many people that would take a dog thats dog agressive... fyi we are looking at getting a clicker this weekend to begin clicker training to help reinforce the good and teach bad to good.. i just dont know if this would work in that kind of situation

[cleoandbuffy]

really really long! sorry!:( i guess i needed to vent as well as explain!

[hamish&mandy]

Wow! Well good for you for trying and being patient with her. Our only advice is just to keep being patient with her, these things do take a lot of time. We've had 3 rescue dogs in Korea and we've found the thing that works the most is routine, routine, routine. They need to know where they fall in the "pecking order" in your "pack". (In this case, your family.)
Good luck!

[cleoandbuffy]

thank you for the kind words you guys. and thank you for reading thru all of that! your blog involving your cocker spaniel was actually a bit of a relief to me sense were still unsure of weather or not she stillneeds more treatment... we find that out on monday. but i guess it just helps me realize the treatment is something we can do :)

[annie]

Hi there,

There are a lot of elements to consider, but I want to thank you for being patient.

About the aggression, my Timmy just started that!! He will wag his tail like crazy, but darts at the dogs without even smelling him first.

I got a trainer to come to my place and we figured a few things out. First, Timmy wants to protect me and second, she made me realized that for the past year, I've let him get away with a lot of stuff...

Let me explain that more...I'm usually quite firm with my foster dogs because I want to be in charge and I have a lot of pets, so I need peace :) I was always successful at it.
However, when I decided to foster Timmy, he had been at the shelter for 6 years....So, there were so many issues we had to work on that needed more work than being firm. He was terrified of everything and everyone...So, I basically let him gain confidence by giving him a lot of powers.

Unfortunately, it kind of backfired and I realized that I let him get away with a lot...Especially after he was given about 2 years to live because of his heart...I really kind of let him be in control (not consciously, really! It just kind of happened).

So now, what we are working on with the trainer is back to the basis. In other words, if Timmy listens to me for "sit" and "lay down", he will be better at listening to me on the leash when he wants to attack other dogs. He has known No and Come for a very long time, but the idea is to get him better at listening to me.

The trainer also suggested trying to find other dogs to go and play with in parks and such...

So in short, get her to do basic tricks and be consistent and firm, get her more socialized if you have a chance (timmy is fine with other dogs when inside, so it's worth trying), and don't give up!! :)

[cleoandbuffy]

glad to hear im not the only one around with a ( as my hubby labeled it...) " bipolar dog". We are working on the listening bit... shes getting better... from day one we really didnt let her get away with anything... the house rules are the house rules... luckily ive had to stop telling her no as often because somethings she doesnt do as badly as she did when we first got her in here.... we didnt even let her off the leash the first hour in the house, we followed her around as we let her explore... she had about 30 min off leash, then we all crashed... the next day was all off leash inside and she did well... say for the thing with the dog...

i just had a revilation... were waiting to get a clicker to start some serious training as i dont wish to confuse her.... but my daughter just came up to me clicking a little burgerking 'trouble' popper... where its not quite the same sound... it is close... perhaps i can make that work to start on training a bit more... i just dont want her in the habit of that every time she does what i ask, she will get a yummy treat! ( she loves chicken... i bought a bag of chicken thighs and boiled them up the day we got her... so shes got some yummy treats for sure that arent full of processed crud!)

ill keep up with the training and hopefully that will help some... ive thought about taking her in her crate ( shes not fond of it but she will lay down no issues in it when i put her in it ) and go visit the neighbors house... perhaps she will feel safer being contained? knowing nothing can get to her? i just dont want her to not want to get into it more than she already does!

[allisondyoung]

Hi cleoandbuffy!

I'm no expert by any means, and it seems like you are trying your best and really committed to helping Brandy adjust! So, thank you for that. :)

Again, I am in no way qualified to be giving you advice on training or behavior issues, but I have read a few books on this particular topic as I was hoping to learn how best to introduce a new dog to my other dog, so I can share a few tidbits that I've learned along the way.

I think one of the reasons Brandy may have went berserk when you picked her up is because she felt trapped. If she felt threatened by the presence of the other dogs, this was probably exacerbated when you picked her up as she may have felt like she was unable to get away or escape if she needed/wanted to. (i.e, unable to protect herself.)

Another thing that might be helpful, (if the other owner is willing) is to take the dogs for a walk together. Preferably single file, with the two larger dogs in the lead. (Brandy would probably be uncomfortable with the other dogs following behind her) This could help the dogs become accustomed to one another, without forcing them to only focus on each other and would also keep things moving.

Again, I am no expert. I know that there are some experts on this forum, though, you might try sending a PM to Lolamarigolda, as I know she's been pretty helpful with advice and instruction on how to deal with a plethora of behavior problems. :)

Good Luck!

[LolaMarigolda]

1. wagging tail not always a sign that all is well. My APBTs will wag their tails while plotting ways to destroy another animal/dog then continue to wag while in the middle of doing just that.

2. Sounds like she's had some past issues with larger males, among other things. It will take getting her at threshold with each dog and then working closer from there,

3. I'll repeat something I've often said around here. Be thankful she's growling. That's her way of saying, "Hey, I don't like this situation/what you are doing." At that point, you should remove her from the situation and give her the distance she needs from the other dog, otherwise, you are just reinforcing that she has to go on the defensive and take care of things herself,

4, From my observations as a trainer and as a spectator, most of the little dogs that get "King of the Hill" syndrome do so because they are allowed to be obnoxious off leash/on leash/and can do no wrong.as far as the owners are concerned.

It really sounds like she's leash reactive. I'd defiantly suggest reading "Scardey Dog" by Ali Brown.

5. Ditch the flexi. At least for any time you are walking her through the courtyard/commons areas you have described. It is too easy for another dog to get caught/tangled in one, they can easily be dropped due to the way the handles are made, and they make for nasty rope burns that take a long time to heal.

6, Neutral Ground. The yard/common area isn't "neutral ground"; you've stated yourself that :
i can only imagine the dozens of dog smells out there as there are at least a dozen dogs in the 6 building complex

Neutral ground is where neither party has been and has determined to be their "territory". A dog's definition of territory is also much different than a humans. While you might consider her territory to be inside the apartment proper; she defines it as anywhere she regularly/routinely walks.

I'm still half asleep at the moment, but will make a more complete post later (addressing the whole pack leader isn't determined by who goes through the door first, dealing with truly DA dogs (which I would not classify this as).

hamish&mandy The dog has been in the home for less than a couple of weeks; she hasn't had a chance to settle down into the household much less learn their routine.

[hamish&mandy]

Oh we knew Brandy was recently adopted :-), we just feel it's super important to start routine from Day One, I think you guys are doing a great job, all dogs are different. :-)

[cleoandbuffy]

lola your post sounded a bit on the attacking side... im not upset but please tone it down :) so here are some info to your comments

?2. it doesnt matter male, female, small, large, or same size... i do agree tho that i believe she has had something in her past that happened and not being 100% settled down here and what not may be to be part of the cause of the fear rising up again

?3. she growls... litterally a second before she snaps, i always try to seperate before it gets to that point, but with no other sign before its hard to tell when one minute she walks up all happy dog ( yes i know the body cues) then suddenly growls and snaps... it litterally all can change in about 5 seconds... thtas why for the most part we are just trying to 'avoid' conflict, i always check out the courtyard before i let her out into it and sense havent had any run ins... i am intending to get a muzzle so we can try to do interactions with other willing owners without fear of injury

?4. brandy is very well behaved on the leash when its me and her ( or the kids along on the occasions) and listens to my commands and guidence...

?5. you may not like a flexi leash but to be honest... i love them... ive walked danes on them whom have tried to chase things around and havent budged.... im not a small woman and my strength matches my size... including hand strength... ive never dropped a flexi leash, never had a dog get out of control on a flexi leash. i grew up learning how to use them ( when i was a small child) on a 60 lb dog... which might have something to do with it... i am not a novice to them. where i agree a lot of owners use them badly... please dont assume that... i choose the flexi over the regular when im not having to have other things in my hands... for a reason, because i work best with them. ( unlike my husband... we do have a regular leash as well btw)

?6. if that is the case then we will have to meet miles away because well most dogs are virtually everywhere here... a lot of the owners take their dogs all over the place with them. last i heard parks, even ones dogs have been to regularly, is considered neutral ground.... its not being in the home where the dog is protective of ( or personal yard space for those with fenced yards ect)


as for the door thing.. i dont do that because of the pack leader thing compleately... i do it to help reinforce the behavior i wish for the process of the walks, its a wonderful way to make her sit and stay and reinforce something she wants from it. its working out beautifully, to the poitn that after her week of being here... i rarely have to say anything anymore, i just wait and she does it in seconds.. shes a very bright girl... as standard of the breed :D my daughter (4) has even been training her in the respects of fetch... which they both have been having a blast doing... it gets her a bit extra excersice and helps bond with the children in a 'productive' manor ( is that the right word?) just like the girls helping to brush her coat out. its something she enjoys, the kids enjoy and oviously, supervised, makes a great family activity that includes everyone and makes all happy

yes brandy has only been here 1 week. thats why i posted that im not going to just give up on her... i know getting her to be tollerant of other dogs can take months if not years... but i brought it up as soon as i was fully aware of it being a problem ( not just the 2 male dogs) because i want to nip the behavior int he bud before it becomes an much bigger issue. im looking for helpful advice on how to correct the behavior, weather it personal or researched ( ive done a handful of my own research) or friends experiences... im not looking to be criticized as an owner which i dont think is right for anyone to have to read, especially when looking for ways to help resolve a problem. yes i should avoid dog confrontation as much as possible... which i have been doing... but i cant minimize it all sense there is only one way in and out of our building... which all 6 buildings of 3-6 appartments lead out to... nor can i control the other dogs... i can do my best to keep them away from her but i cannot elimante all dog interaction which is why im seeking advice.

fyi i will be heading to seoul tomorrow to get clicker and muzzle ( im going to have to take measurements of her head because i will not be able to bring her with... going to some non dog friendly places) and on monday she will be getting her vet checkup including her heartworm retest.... hopefully all will be negitive... but if not then any training on the serious end, will have to wait till we get the all clear... if that means i take her outside via the crate and walk around to the far back of the appartments to let her out, then that will have to be the case. but lets cross fingers that this poor girl is clear of her heart worms!

[LolaMarigolda]

Nothing in my post was attacking nor criticizing. I don't sugarcoat things, I've got more than a quarter century involved in ADBA bred APBTs, including time well spent with several mentors; I know quite a bit about DA. I actually got my start showing GSDs as a child (in the breed ring, not juniors) and got my first APBT (UKC) when I was 12. He was championed out less than a year later with no help from any adults other than transportation. At that point, I had fallen in love with the ADBA style dogs so my Dad took me to the closest "Dogman" available and my real education started. My dogs are shown (conformation), weight pulled, used for hunting wild hogs, and have obedience titles. If I had the time, I'd have been doing therapy work as well. I've also got more than 16 years in training hounds (basic through advanced obedience, broke fox dogs, agility, and a Beagle service dog that can Guide as well as medical alert and response tasks). The only reason I don't have an APBT SD is because I've yet to come across a natural alerter (something that cannot be taught for my neurological condition). I've trained (both APBTs and hounds) for others as well. Before my current marriage, I routinely had up to half a dozen "boarders" in training. I still have my kennel, but have left most of the work to my kennel partner so I could spend time with the hubby over here.

I do have a problem with people who immediately start off with the whole "you gotta assert yourself" mentality; too many people watch a certain pseudo celebrity on Nat Geo and think they can correct behavior via alpha rolling and other out of date methods that only increase the problem and either get the dog PTS or make it that much harder for a behaviorist to fix. Mech debunked pack theory in wolves (yes, there are leaders, but the hierarchy isn't nearly as strict as once thought and the "Alphas" don't rule with an iron fist) and I don't subscribe to it when looking at the human/dog relationship. They have the brains of an adolescent wolf (at best) and are several thousand years removed from their wild counterparts.

From my perspective, there is a huge difference between making a dog wait to go through a door and making one constantly walk behind you through a door. Most of the things people have come up with as ways to assert dominance mean squat to the dog. Calm consistency gets the job done better than being all over the place (emotionally), which is what happens when people Alpha Roll. I don't have to dominate to be the leader.

From your 3/18 12:45 post, I'm getting the feeling that you don't fully understand how clicker training works. Yes, in the beginning you do a lot of treating. As the dog gets the concept of each new task/behavior/trick, you still click, but start phasing out the food reward and use praise or something else the dog likes (toys, towel tugs, etc). Eventually, that is all you do (and you don't have to click unless working on new stuff). Karen Pryor explains it in several of her books, some of which are available online. There are various points in training each new thing. You want consistency, but you also have to work on duration and distance, Those take time. For example, a good solid recall can literally mean life or death for a dog. Most people don't proof for all phases or give up because they have hit a plateau or stumbling block and don't know how to get past it.

Flexis have absolutely NO place in basic training and none of the trainers I know (quite a few) as well as behaviorists like them nor do they allow them in their basic or intermediate level classes. Most won't allow them in ANY class, preferring a 20-50 foot flat leash for distance work. They are fine for use on a trained and proofed dog, but not on a dog that has DA issues. I have one. Best thing in the world when pottying dogs in the middle of a hurricane, but definitely not a training tool,

The sad fact is that most people don't use them correctly (something I see all the time on base and off) and they are really not made so as to be easy to keep control over a DA dog the same way a basic 4-6 foot leash is. Plus, they can cause tracheal damage and neck issues, especially on dogs that like to get 10-20 foot behind you then go zooming by at something. I've also seen them break, the brake fail, and dogs and humans end up with nasty cord burns. Plus, from the perspective of a SD handler, it's another pitfall to have to watch out for while maneuvering around.

When I mentioned neutral ground not being what you thought, it didn't mean that introductions cannot be done there, but that it isn't as neutral as you would think. It is more neutral than inside the home or yard, but still isn't as "safe" as most imagine. I can't recall who wrote the article, but someone did a bit of research into dog attacks that involved more than one dog; the common denominator was that the dogs generally stayed in the "territory" in which they were routinely walked. The general consensus amongst behaviorists was that the dogs consider that space as "theirs". They may or may not guard it with the same ferocity as they would their home/yard, but it is no longer "neutral ground".

I also did not indicate that your dog has "king of the hill" behavior, but that in general, picking her up (to avoid confrontation) is not going to give you that particular problem. It's the people who don't bother to train and think it's cute when Fluffy growls at the bigger dogs that are causing their own problems.

I can guarantee that she's showing other stress/over-stimulation/over-threshold signs before she growls. Some can be so subtle that it takes a pro to notice. Also, given the time frame of her arrival, her signs/tells could be all over the place,

I never said you had to avoid all other dogs. ANY behaviorist is going to tell you that to work on the problem, you have to 1) ID their threshold and work from there. The main reason I suggested Ali's book is because 1) she knows what the heck she's talking about and 2) I've seen real life proof of what her advice and training assistance can do a la Asher. He was a puppy mill rescue that was inflicting bites on the highest end of Dunbar's scale (amazing for his size); the rescue was ready to euthanize him, but his foster mom took him to Ali instead. He's now capable of being around children and has more rally, obedience, and agility titles than I care to count. Kim (his mom) is now teaching under Ali and has helped a ton of other dogs.

The suggestion of walking her single file behind the larger dogs, or any dog she doesn't get along with is sound and the writer was correct in pointing out that if she were in front, she'd most likely be more concerned about what is behind her. That would also be a good way to work on her threshold without upsetting the other dogs and make it easy to back her off when/if she becomes overstimulated.

[cleoandbuffy]

i am glad you come with great references of your knowledge... but just like everyone. we all have our own opinions to what is correct :D tho i am glad to hear how many dogs you have helped!... for the record there is only really 3 things i agree with ceasar millan with.. 1. your emotion affects your dogs ( aka his calm assertive bs translates into that lol) 2. excersize does wonders. 3. love is not the most important... training and exersize come before it.... i do watch his shows.. well used to when i was up late... mainly because it was the only non infomirtal thing on there... i liked seeing the stories but the more i saw the more i disliked him... tho some points ( moreso with the smaller dogs) i believed were understandable... ( note to your comment about king of the hill concept)

as for the door thing... that really is more me trying to keep her calm and paitent... stay works wonders... ( ask Ada on that one and im glad she told me it) the problem is she doesnt always want to stay once i move... so having her stay at the door when i take my one step in or out..has actually improved her staying a lot with me because she gets what she wants afterwards... a great immediate reward... same goes for leash on and off. it works out well and once again has nothing to do with "territory" or all that CM bs lol

clicker training... if i miss said something eirlier i am sorry... where i have never clicker trained a dog... i have done a handful of research on it. from various sources including karen pryor ( spelling)'s website... i am considering buying her book but i dont know if i can find it out here... i do know treats are only used at first... and occasional reinforcements down the line... to top it off once associating the clicker as good.. i plan on 'retraining' sit and stay to help reinforce that fact. i am also helping clicker training helps to get her to focus on me better.. for instances with major distractions ( aka the other dogs and the rabbit... aslo food.. leave it is one we must work on but when she knows i have food in hand she works well till its gone then nada... ive tried... so im hoping the cilcker will help transition from food treats to other 'rewards' what be they ( she loves a good rub) a bit easier

as for the leashes... i will stick to my opinion of flexi... tho yes i agree.. there are places and times they are not good.. aka training sessions... but ive tried using the 6 foot leash we have the last 2-3 days and i sware she damn near refuses to go to the bathroom on it... i just froze a half hour ago when i took her out and what she does in 2 min on a flexi.. she took 15 to do on a normal leash... not sure why sense flexi is new to her... and as i stated unless in the parkinglot when obviously there are no other dogs around, is the only time i allow the flexi to have any length on it beyond a normal lead. enough said on that shall we agree to dissagree?:) ( at least in some respects.. as i said.. training is a lead only no flexi kinda situation)

i actually love the idea of walks behind other dogs with her... right now my current problem is my hubby is doing some army training and is out til the first... leaving me a 'single' mom till then... our walks have consisted of pacing the parking lot once or twice a day depending on time of day and her energy level ect. we are working on trying to do the loose leash... she gets it for a few steps and i praise her but the moment i praise she starts pulling... so i am trying to wait a tad longer to praise each time. slow progression but steady... i just stop... she looks at me for a second then comes to sit or stand by my side... so she is getting it ( i think.. please tell me if im wrong on that one...)

i am not purpously avoiding other dogs... i just make sure to look before we go out ( were already leashed and in the hall at that point) its more of a heads up for me... im not trying to find situations at the moment sense i would like to get some more training in and maybe the word im looking for is make us both more confident with each toher... does that sound right? not sure... but the concept is the same... Ada and i were talking about it eirlier and we both hope and think this might just be part of her settling in... with Ada she ignored most other big dogs... and was friendly towards small dogs... so were hoping that as time goes on and some work in process that things will smooth down.. probably next weekend ( not this one) we will probably start trying to do some arranged 'dog' meets where we can schedual something out while my husband can be home with the kids during it.

as with the fact that we havent had any dog run is ( on leash) sense the last post... i cant try to watch better... but looking back at the other ones i still dont see any other cues tho i will watch much closer from here on... we went to the vet yesterday and we kept her crated except for on the scale ( no other dog in the lobby at that time) and in the exam room.. but during the wait time there were several other dogs around. where i warned everyone that she hasnt had the best dog interaction ( i didnt want them letting their dog go up and nudge the crate... i just forsaw that being a bad thing) the other dogs did walk around the crates... she sat there calm ( or when i was away from the crate whined a bit) when she was calm and another dog was by i would give her a little treat and tell her she was a good girl... i was surpized that she didnt even really acknowledge them besides a " ooh look a dog....ooh whats this?" lol it may have been the true neutral territory or the crate... or us just doing better... once again.. another thing that only time and a few more interactions will be able to tell...

either way, this is getting long.. its getting late... and i have a sick 2 year old that im sure will wake me up in not too long and many times thru the night ( joy..... ) so imma go... i just wanted ot let you know i did take in some things you said... dispite feeling like i was getting snipped at... i know there is a lot of things i must do to be a good dog mom... but being told that my opinons on somethings didnt matter... basically made me feel like a scolded child... something i thought we tried to avoid on this site:) i do know you are good at what you do and i am thankful for your insight... i guess my stance was that instead of feeling like you were a neutral helper... i got an opinionated 'old fashioned' school teacher... its nothing against you and i probably perseved it a bit stronger than i should have.. ive been rather stressed with hubby gone and the issues going on around here.... sorry for being *itchy... its nothing against you i sware!

[cleoandbuffy]

on an upnote... brandy got her new crate today! the other one was too small by like 4-5 inches in each direction :( and i hated putting her in it but it was either that or constantly be on her for doing naughty in situations she was set up to fail on.. came with a pair of the cheep little bowls that the put on the cage door and suddenly getting food and water in her crate makes it not so evil lol im so happy to have a proper sized crate for her now... we plan on keeping the little one at least for a while till we get the dog-dog aggression under some control for vet trips sense this one is just a bit too big to try to take in a cab or what have you... but otherwise it will collect dust

also the clickers and i got a treat holder to go with it ( so im not fumbling with a ziplock baggie in my pocket) so that training can become a full out opperation. they should arrive by mid week the latest. i have a friend that works in the mail room keeping an eye out for me :D shes also getting better at walking on the leash without pulling... she forgets when shes a bit overly excited ( aka first time in the morning or if the kids come out with us for whathave you reason) but otherwise she is doing much better.... for some reason the " ehh" like a wrong answer buzzer sound... seems to work wonders at correcting her on it... sometimes i have to 'tap' the leash but normally an eh will stop her... most timesi just stop and she returns... but over all getting much improvement in that respect... tho she deffinately did not wanna go out in the snow the other night! she gave me that wtf are you trying to make me do mom... look lol well.. hopefully ill be able to post more good news next weekend...

hubby and i agree.. as long as she continues to make progress, that is what matters and we are willing to work with her to get to the end goal.. our biggest challenge will be the dogs... if i have to keep the rabbit seperate for ages thats fine ill make due... we found her a friend so shes not alone all day ( tho they arent caged together yet) but they do get along wonderfully outside of the cage. tho hopefully someday we wont have an issue with all 3 furries... but in the mean time we shall work and make due with what we must...

[cleoandbuffy]

just wanted to give yall an update... got the clickers ( and treat bag... i was tired of having ziplog baggies in my pockets) and to honestly say... i think she was clicker trained in her old home... took her out to do her business... got her to run on leash a bit ( first time really) to burn off some extra energy tho until i get her hw retest ( hopefully this weekend) im trying to keep to a low energy lifestyle cuz she gets pritty heavy on the breathing so im a tad worried... either way... we came in.. already had clicker and bag on me... switched leashes to the cotton ( i think) one... walked into my bedroom... now there isnt a whole lot of space but with the door closed it is the quiet most boring place in the house... i tied her leash to the door handle and stood next to the bed... a whole 4-5 ft away... from the door lol the moment i started trying to reconize c&t.. she seemed to instantly know what i was doing... needless to say i went thru the motions ( she likes pupperoni but i plan to switch to steak and chicken soon lol) unlike normal... the first time i said sit she dropped... i was impressed... i got her to look me in the eyes( not the treats) for probably good 5 seconds at a time.. even got her to leave a pizza crust! i really think her origional owners did some clicker with me... either that or she got the concept nearly instnatly.. either way i plan over the next week or two, a few times a day... to go over the same commands with her ( we did sit, stay, touch, look at me, and leave it) so far all in quiet... yes i know that was a LOT more commands than i should have done but she knew sit and stay... and apparently touch ( didnt know that but i said it the first time and she did it so yey) leave it and look at me were future goals that because she was already doing sitting and touching that i decided to do something else to give her another cue and the veriety made her listen better... she kept up very well.. i only had to wait and repeat like twice and i think that was due to me saying it too soon while she was still licking her lips lol. i also am using "good girl" when i treat or give lovins after the click.. hoping to make her associate that as well so that way if im accross the room and i ask her to "leave it" with the kids... or what have you... she knows thats a form of praise as well... so im using it with every 'treat" ( praise and food) at the moment... that way hopefully when time has it i can leave it to praise and the good girl... as im writing this im impressed... the couches... which always have smellgood crumbs left over from the kids... im saying leave it and shes turning away * does a happy dance* what makes me the happiest is just how happy she was to listen.... well wish us luck and any advice ( other than probably lessen the commands) let me know... when i get a near perfect training in the quiet ill move out to more 'distracting' places and well today was i would say about a 75% so were good so far... either way im sure this will help our home life and hopefully the rabbit and dog issues as well ... all in time tho of course... step by step!:D

[cleoandbuffy]

oh forgot to add... i also plan to start some basic clicker training with the buns once i figure out a "magic" treat for them... i hope to show my husband just how intellegent the beautiful creatures are... also the buns moved in together today and so far are doing wonderfully together... the hubby has been gone sense the 14th so when he gets back hes gonna be shocked at just how big both babies are! lol ( bun bun ( its what ive been calling her) no longer looks anything like a baby bunny... and oreo (? name is still in question) is already probably 2-3 times bigger than when we got her on the 19th... still not happy about doing purchase instead of adopt but in the respect of age closeness im glad i did as i did because they are both young rabbits and im about 90% sure both are female but i will continue to check frequently... and providing i continue to maintian that or better possitives ( hoping to take them to the vets in the next month or two which would put only bun bun as sexually mature) i can get a 100% confirmation... if one is male.. he gets snipped first but both are to be 'fixed' hopefully no later than by 1 year old... but i dont want to do it eirlier than 6 months as of uncertianty of breeds...) gahh... long winded again sry guys... bye!