Girl Scouts

[Jiyoung]

Hi
My aunt is Vice President of the Girl Scouts of Korea Busan division
and I'm a Young Leader and we're interested in organizing a volunteer trip (or several) for some scouts to the DaeJon shelter if it hasn't shut down yet. We're expecting a big turn up since it's the holidays for most students now but since you guys seem to be the most knowledgable of this shelter I have a few things I was curious about...:

1. If their parents consent can kids ages 10+ participate? Or is there an age restriction for safety?
2. What is the exact address?
3. If the girls start knitting blankets now would the lady have any use for them if they're finished around mid-January? (Since it's shutting down...?)
4. What kind of volunteer work is most needed? Grooming? Walking? (I need to set up itineraries or some kind of job list)
5. What is the terrain like? Should the girls wear rubber boots, etc?
6. How is the safety? This is tied to question #1...since some of the girls will be young I'm wondering if we shouldn't allow them to come along if it's too dangerous...to avoid any possible problems

Please let me know! You can email me too at sj.ixx.star.dini@gmail.com

[Scarlet13]

That's a fantastic idea I hope it works out for your troop!

[pukka]

While I agree with the sentiment, I think there are limits to what children could do to help.
The knitting sounds wonderful, especially if it is carried out in a playful way.

Dogs are unpredictable and I would never suggest letting young children
walk them. Grooming requires special skills. Even though most dogs are
sweet, it is not an easy job.
Even we adults have almost lost dogs on walks. Last Saturday a dog managed
to escape from a leash.
We caught him, but the point is that dogshelters
are best taken care of by adult volunteers.
Thanks for the idea- maybe my other friends have other suggestions.
They could come to play with adult volunteers and learn about taking care of dogs- that would
actually be a better idea! Educating kids about the situation is very important.
They could meet the dogs and learn at the same time.

As for the address, we don't give that information online. Adult volunteers usually go on Saturdays, so if a group of children were to come along to join them, that could be arranged through the people who are coordinating those visits. Also, the shelter manager should be informed.

[Karen]

Hi
My aunt is Vice President of the Girl Scouts of Korea Busan division and I'm a Young Leader and we're interested in organizing a volunteer trip (or several) for some scouts to the DaeJon shelter if it hasn't shut down yet...
Hi Jiyoung!

Even though I'm in Canada now and not volunteering at the shelter anymore, I would like to add some opinions to the discussion, and try to answer some of your questions. Sorry if this is very very long!

I very strongly believe, like pukka said, that educating kids about abandoned pets is important, even the most critical factor in making improvements. I don't think the kids should miss this chance to see the effects of human decisions about how animals are treated. I think your Girl Scouts trip is a wonderful idea that could have a big impact.

That said, the shelter in Daejeon is not pretty and the situation is very sad. The girls (and adults) you bring should be prepared for what they will see so that the experience is positive and not depressing.

Before they arrive they need to know:

- basic safety tips about how to approach dogs (move slowly, let them smell your fist, etc...)
- the shelter is noisy, dirty and smells bad (only one woman takes care of the dogs every day, and there are over 140 dogs)
- there are many reasons the dogs are there: some were abandoned by their owners, lost, or puppies born by accident who could not find a home, etc. All of these situations can be prevented!
- they can help animals by learning how to be responsible pet owners (I can write a long list of points here!)

To answer some of your other questions...

1. If their parents consent can kids ages 10+ participate? Or is there an age restriction for safety?
As far as I know, no group of children has visited this shelter before. Some families have visited with their kids, so 2-3 kids at a time and supervised by their parents. 3 or 4 regular volunteers bring new volunteers each weekend but they are normally adults-only. There are no formal rules set up.

2. What is the exact address?
As pukka mentioned, the exact address is not given publicly on the internet partly for safety reasons and partly because the shelter is in the countryside and the directions are difficult to describe. It would be best to meet up one of the regular volunteers first at an easy-to-find location, and then go together.

3. If the girls start knitting blankets now would the lady have any use for them if they're finished around mid-January? (Since it's shutting down...?)
As I understand, the shelter is very cold right now and the dogs would very much appreciate the warmth. Knitting small blankets for the dogs is a wonderful idea. I think it would mean a lot if the girls could give their blanket to an individual dog. Knowing you are helping is a very empowering experience.

4. What kind of volunteer work is most needed? Grooming? Walking? (I need to set up itineraries or some kind of job list)
I agree with pukka that there are a few activities kids should not be allowed to do alone: grooming, walking the dogs, and entering the greenhouse. Because the dogs are running free inside the greenhouse, and many of the dogs are afraid of people, it would be a risk to let the kids enter the greenhouse itself.

However, if adult volunteers familiar with the dogs were there, they could choose which dogs the kids could meet. Many of the dogs. Then a small group could walk and play with one dog, for example 1 adult + 2 kids with one dog.

This work may not seem so important, but in fact socializing the dogs is a very important part of volunteering. A dog who is comfortable with people is more likely to be adopted.

One more idea: what if the girls could pick a name for the dog they meet, write something about the dog's personality, and make an "adoption ad" for that dog to help the dog find a home. If your group had a place where these posters could be displayed publicly, it could really help place a few dogs in homes before the shelter closes. If you wanted to do this I could make a simple English form that could be translated so the girls could fill it out in Korean.

5. What is the terrain like? Should the girls wear rubber boots, etc?
These photos will give you some idea of what the terrain is like: http://www.lonelylifetime.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=76

Most of the dogs are kept inside a greenhouse which is very dirty. A few dogs live in houses outside the greenhouse. The greenhouse is on a farm so the terrain is muddy.

Yes, rubber boots, work clothes, and gloves are necessary. Warm clothes because it is outside. Also, they will 100% certainly get dirty, so clean clothes to change into after is a good idea, too.

6. How is the safety? This is tied to question #1...since some of the girls will be young I'm wondering if we shouldn't allow them to come along if it's too dangerous...to avoid any possible problems.
Inside the greenhouse the dogs are running free. Though most are very sweet, some of these dogs are afraid of people. Children often move too quickly and scare the dogs, and this means the dogs might bite to protect themselves. To avoid that danger, the younger kids should not be allowed inside the greenhouse. Responsible older kids should be OK, but to be safe just letting them look inside might be a better idea.

Also, because the Daejeon shelter is not maintained by an animal welfare organization, only by one woman with no funding, the animals are not vetted. Some of the dogs have mild skin infections, for example, and there is a risk that these can be transmitted to healthy pets if the people do not change their clothes and wash with soap before touching their pets at home. Gloves and soap are very important.

Final thoughts...
The shelter in Daejeon is desperate for help, it is due to be closed February 28th, 2008. What will happen to the dogs is not sure, they will probably move to a city shelter and be killed. This is a very sad fact I can understand you might not want to talk to the girls about.

That is one reason why I keep thinking that a better place to visit would be the Korean Animal Protection Society's new shelter in Boeun. They are a no-kill shelter, and they have an instruction room which is indoors. They have both dogs and cats housed there. Here are some photos from the shelter's opening ceremony before the small dogs and cats moved in: http://www.lonelylifetime.com/photos/animal-shelters-in-korea/boeun-shelter/

Their website is http://www.koreananimals.or.kr/, and the director's contact information is at the very bottom of each page. They also have a shelter in Daegu and they may already have a program ready for visiting groups of kids.

I hope this helps! If you have any more questions, please post again. I really, really think that teaching kids about pet care is important, so I hope your plans for a shelter visit work out well. I'd like to help as much as I can even though I'm far away!

Happy New Year!

Karen

[Jiyoung]

While I agree with the sentiment, I think there are limits to what children could do to help.
The knitting sounds wonderful, especially if it is carried out in a playful way.

Dogs are unpredictable and I would never suggest letting young children
walk them. Grooming requires special skills. Even though most dogs are
sweet, it is not an easy job.
Even we adults have almost lost dogs on walks. Last Saturday a dog managed
to escape from a leash.
We caught him, but the point is that dogshelters
are best taken care of by adult volunteers.
Thanks for the idea- maybe my other friends have other suggestions.
They could come to play with adult volunteers and learn about taking care of dogs- that would
actually be a better idea! Educating kids about the situation is very important.
They could meet the dogs and learn at the same time.

As for the address, we don't give that information online. Adult volunteers usually go on Saturdays, so if a group of children were to come along to join them, that could be arranged through the people who are coordinating those visits. Also, the shelter manager should be informed.
I'm very sorry to have to ask this but did the shelter manager appoint you to give permission or turn down volunteer groups? I'm having a difficult time understanding how your policy of giving out the whereabouts of the shelter is supposed to help the shelter. Isn't the goal to have as many dogs adopted as possible? I asked this board because, as mentioned, it isn't an official shelter so there is no information online. The Girl Scouts Busan council has 17 "adults" alone who almost always go on every volunteer trip, 8 young leaders have already expressed interest, and like I said the kids coming along wasn't a sure factor because I'm very well aware of how unpredictable dogs can be. I wasn't born yesterday. We weren't going to shove children into a room full of 200 dogs and let them figure it out. And when I said grooming I wasn't just spewing out words. I worked parttime as a groomer's assistant at Petco for 2 years before moving here so I know how to remove hair from the face area for the dog's comfort without harming it. I'm not a professional but at least have some idea of how to carry it out. How often do professional groomers volunteer their time there? As for the other volunteers...it isn't rocket science to dry a dog, brush a dog, or even give a dog a bath. Young leaders are all at least 20 years old...or is that not adult enough for you? Or did you mean one of your regular group when you said "adult volunteers"? Because what I understand from your reply is that groups other than yourself and your friends are not welcome, not by the actual owner, but by you. I understand that some people here have helped many of the dogs to be adopted to families but again, I don't understand why you dislike the idea of having a larger group go more often to help the woman and the dogs. I really don't. I know you have the dogs' best interest at heart but this does not seem to be it at all. The actual council has friendly ties to other Girl Scout councils in every province who in turn have friendly ties to their respective city councils and it's a foggy hope but they could've spoken to the city on the woman's behalf.

In Busan alone there are over 300 young scouts in elementary school ONLY. I know in the US Girl Scouts isn't a big thing but it is here and they are influential. There are many prospective adoptive families in those numbers. Did you consider that? A lot of Westerners think that all Koreans are ignorant when it comes to dogs and cats and that's probably true for the older generations but the newer generations are just as sympathetic and willing to help as any of you.


I know I came off as rude and do understand that it wasn't an attack on your character but please also understand that it is extremely frustrating to offer my and others' help only to be turned down by someone who does not have the right. And I may have blown what you said out of proportion but even so...Even the shelters I've been to in the States allowed volunteers (as young as 16) to walk, bathe, and socialize with dogs varying between chihuahuas to pitbulls. Please bear in mind that I was not asking for your permission and since you're unwilling to help us help I'll ask our own Volunteer Coordinator to contact the DaeJeon division for the location. And on a personal note, I usually regard fellow animal activists as kin but you've really negatively altered how I view your efforts. Why not let the country's people take care of those who share the land? Like you said, the kids need awareness. Korea has no PETA (as extreme as PETA is I find myself wishing they had an international division here to nag at these people to the point of realization) and the animal welfare organizations that are set up in Korea are very quiet. What Korea does have IS organizations like PETA and other Westerners (I'm not accusing you but this is the general thing I've noticed among most US animal welfare websites) shunning it's people because of old traditions and what they call ignorance. You should really give them a chance to redeem themselves. It's a small group compared to the entire population but their efforts will be shadowed little by little. It isn't fair to them or the dogs to mask the real situation with games and sugared words. If I wanted to make a small impact on them I'd take them to a pet store and tell them to notice the sickly smell and the poor health of the newborns and ask them what happens to those puppies that don't get sold.


And Karen, thank you so much for the suggestion but this particular shelter struck me as needing the most help and while it's on a ticking clock I thought at least the older volunteers who are at least of Korean legal age could go to do as much as they could. But I will forward the other shelter's information to the council for the younger kids

[Wibidad]

Jiyoung,

The shelter manager does not want her address posted anywhere. The first time I visited the shelter, we had to make contact with someone who knew the manager and he took us there personally. If you are interested in organizing an outing to the shelter, you can coordinate it with the people who go regularly. It had nothing to do with "turning down" volunteers, and everything to do with protecting the manager's privacy, since the shelter is also where she lives.

And don't imagine this shelter is anything like what you've seen in the US. Bathing the dogs, for example, would be very difficult since even running water is in scarce supply. Many of the dogs are not going to let you get near them to brush or clean them. Since this facility is not an official shelter, there is a lot at risk having children around. That isn't to say the children shouldn't or couldn't visit- just be aware of the reality of this place.

Maybe you should visit the shelter yourself first and see what we are talking about. Of course, you know it isn't a petting zoo.

If you contact the people who organize the regular trips (and their contact info is easily found here), they can explain in person and put you in touch with the manager.

[Karen]

Hi Jiyoung,

I think there may be some mutual misunderstandings...

I'm very sorry to have to ask this but did the shelter manager appoint you to give permission or turn down volunteer groups? I'm having a difficult time understanding how your policy of giving out the whereabouts of the shelter is supposed to help the shelter.
We are not "giving permission nor turning down volunteer groups". The reason we don't post the address online is because we don't want to be responsible for giving access to the shelter to some non-desirables. Already there have beenpeople who showed up who want "free" dogs so that they can sell them for a profit, and a couple of the dogs have been stolen in some sketchy situations (there are dog meat restaurants nearby... so ???). That's what I meant by "safety reasons". Maybe it wasn't clear, but you are free to call any of the volunteers whose names are posted in other threads and get the directions. No one meant to keep you away, we just don't post the info publicly on this forum.


Isn't the goal to have as many dogs adopted as possible?
Yes! That's why I suggested the girls help make adoption ads for the dogs. More personalized info about the dogs would help promote their adoption. In my opinion, that is the type of work most needed now.

I asked this board because, as mentioned, it isn't an official shelter so there is no information online. The Girl Scouts Busan council has 17 "adults" alone who almost always go on every volunteer trip, 8 young leaders have already expressed interest, and like I said the kids coming along wasn't a sure factor because I'm very well aware of how unpredictable dogs can be. I wasn't born yesterday. We weren't going to shove children into a room full of 200 dogs and let them figure it out.
Thanks for clarifying, but honestly, not everyone is educated about dog behaviour. It wasn't clear from your first post what the ages or numbers of your group would be. In some real shelters all the dogs stay in cages, have been vetted and bathed, and so there would be very little risk to kids and extensive adult supervision would not be necessary. That is not the case at the Daejeon shelter, the state of this place is fairly shocking, actually. It is NOT comparable to any shelter you may have visited in the US, certainly not any of the well-run ones that allow children to volunteer. I was only trying to inform you about what the situation was like.

And when I said grooming I wasn't just spewing out words. I worked parttime as a groomer's assistant at Petco for 2 years before moving here so I know how to remove hair from the face area for the dog's comfort without harming it. I'm not a professional but at least have some idea of how to carry it out. How often do professional groomers volunteer their time there? As for the other volunteers...it isn't rocket science to dry a dog, brush a dog, or even give a dog a bath. Young leaders are all at least 20 years old...or is that not adult enough for you? Or did you mean one of your regular group when you said "adult volunteers"?
We were not aware from your first post that you had any experience in grooming, but even so, once you see the shelter in Daejeon you'll understand the added difficulties. Some of the dogs were groomed in the summer, but most are very dirty and/or knotted so grooming would be a big task even for a professional (in fact, I took three of the dogs to a professional groomer in July and she spent over 2 hours on one single cocker-spaniel, it was a nightmare!). This shelter is also currently lacking any indoor heated space, so even bathing the dogs would be problematic in winter. I'm not trying to discourage you from helping, by all means if you can think of a solution these dogs need a bath! It would make them much more beautiful for adoption photos, that's for sure. I only want to let you know what the conditions are.

Because what I understand from your reply is that groups other than yourself and your friends are not welcome, not by the actual owner, but by you. I understand that some people here have helped many of the dogs to be adopted to families but again, I don't understand why you dislike the idea of having a larger group go more often to help the woman and the dogs. I really don't. I know you have the dogs' best interest at heart but this does not seem to be it at all.
I'm really sorry you interpreted the previous messages that way. I think pukka and I were both just trying to be realistic about what bringing in a group of kids would entail, based only on what we know about the shelter. I hope you don't seriously believe we were discouraging you from visiting.

I personally just wanted you to know the circumstances at this shelter and the things to consider before bringing in a group of kids (you only mentioned 10 year olds, not adults, in your original post). I hope I was not being condescending in my "warnings" about what this place is like (ie. the gloves and soap comments). Really, once you see the place you'll understand why someone would be worried about bringing in a large group of kids.

I know in the US Girl Scouts isn't a big thing but it is here and they are influential. There are many prospective adoptive families in those numbers. Did you consider that?
Yes. I know how much promotion the shelter needs to get more animals adopted before it closes. I know the animals lives depend on it. Believe me, we're aware.

A lot of Westerners think that all Koreans are ignorant when it comes to dogs and cats and that's probably true for the older generations but the newer generations are just as sympathetic and willing to help as any of you.
Actually, you'll notice by reading the number of posts here and on other expat forums about people dumping their pets when they return to their home countries, "Westerners" can be equally irresponsible and ignorant, not that I want to start a "who's worse" competition. I'd like to think that the people who understand what responsibility means can work together to educate, no matter what country they're from.

I know I came off as rude and do understand that it wasn't an attack on your character but please also understand that it is extremely frustrating to offer my and others' help only to be turned down by someone who does not have the right.
Nobody was turning you down for anything.

Even the shelters I've been to in the States allowed volunteers (as young as 16) to walk, bathe, and socialize with dogs varying between chihuahuas to pitbulls.
This place in Daejeon is not a typical shelter. IAKA (Internation Aid for Korean Animals) has accused the manager of being an animal hoarder. The place is not "run" and not funded. There is no organization and the only person in charge of the animals is the one woman who feeds them and lives there. It is not comparable to shelters in the States.

Please bear in mind that I was not asking for your permission and since you're unwilling to help us help I'll ask our own Volunteer Coordinator to contact the DaeJeon division for the location.
Again, no one here was granting or denying you permission. We were only trying to let you know what the place is like so you can make more informed decisions on how to plan your trip. I really cannot understand, after the long message I posted above, how you can say we are "unwilling to help you help". ???

And on a personal note, I usually regard fellow animal activists as kin but you've really negatively altered how I view your efforts. Why not let the country's people take care of those who share the land?
Just to reiterate, no one was not letting you go. I personally think younger kids would have a better experience at the Boeun shelter. Why don't you visit both places yourself before deciding where to bring the kids?

Like you said, the kids need awareness. Korea has no PETA (as extreme as PETA is I find myself wishing they had an international division here to nag at these people to the point of realization) and the animal welfare organizations that are set up in Korea are very quiet. What Korea does have IS organizations like PETA and other Westerners (I'm not accusing you but this is the general thing I've noticed among most US animal welfare websites) shunning it's people because of old traditions and what they call ignorance. You should really give them a chance to redeem themselves.
I agree that many US animal welfare sites discuss animal issues in Asia by throwing out stereotypes and misinformation, because they're mostly written by people who've never visited Asia. I put every effort into not associating this website with any of those. Also, many of the people who participate in this forum work closely with Koreans. We do not share the views that you are talking about.

It isn't fair to them or the dogs to mask the real situation with games and sugared words. If I wanted to make a small impact on them I'd take them to a pet store and tell them to notice the sickly smell and the poor health of the newborns and ask them what happens to those puppies that don't get sold.
I agree that kids should have a chance to see the real consequences of real decisions made by humans. See pets who were once loved in a house and now shiver in the cold. Helping those animals is a very empowering experience, as I already said. And kids can help those animals in a no-kill shelter like Boeun.

On the other hand, I (at 33 years old) can barely handle the thought that in two months some of the dogs that I fell in love with on my visits will very likely be put to death. I would seriously consider the pros and cons of breaking a child's heart before bringing them there. Adults can make their own decisions.

And Karen, thank you so much for the suggestion but this particular shelter struck me as needing the most help and while it's on a ticking clock I thought at least the older volunteers who are at least of Korean legal age could go to do as much as they could. But I will forward the other shelter's information to the council for the younger kids.
Yes, the Daejeon shelter needs an immense amount of help. Absolutely they do. I have no hesitation recommending that adults (ie, anyone over 18) visit, and if I had understood the age composition of your group my previous message would have been entirely different.

[pukka]

I don't understand why you are angry at me. I didn't feel attacked by your suggestion at all!
My answer was based on the information you gave to take childeren of 10+ age to volunteer at the shelter.
You did not mention yourself as a voluteer (to groom etc etc) nor did you mention others 20 years
old.
I am sorry and apologize for not understanding you correctly in the first place, but I didn't say at all that you
were not welcome to visit with the children.
The shelter is not mine though the manager should be informed before, please understand that part.
And NO I don't make the decisions but as you said there is no info on the net, so why is it offensive when I suggest
contacting others who know where the place is? It is not because I want to control the situation but because we
would love to help to get you there. It is not easy to find, you know. Also, it is a matter of respecting the manager's privacy.

Because what I understand from your reply is that groups other than yourself and your friends are not welcome, not by the actual owner, but by you. I understand that some people here have helped many of the dogs to be adopted to families but again, I don't understand why you dislike the idea of having a larger group go more often to help the woman and the dogs. I really don't. I know you have the dogs' best interest at heart but this does not seem to be it at all. The actual council has friendly ties to other Girl Scout councils in every province who in turn have friendly ties to their respective city councils and it's a foggy hope but they could've spoken to the city on the woman's behalf.
I quoted this answer and have no idea where you based this answer from, I again feel bad that we misunderstood each other.
It seems like we both love animals and we both want to do something about their suffering.
If you really want to help to volunteer we should not spend energy on the topic to point fingers but actually doing something to help.
If you come on weekends I would gladly meet you and the girl scouts, if you go during the week then email so we try to arrange some alternate plan.

I hope this clears things up. No hard feelings.

[Scarlet13]

I agree that kids should have a chance to see the real consequences of real decisions made by humans. See pets who were once loved in a house and now shiver in the cold. Helping those animals is a very empowering experience, as I already said. And kids can help those animals in a no-kill shelter like Boeun.

On the other hand, I (at 33 years old) can barely handle the thought that in two months some of the dogs that I fell in love with on my visits will very likely be put to death. I would seriously consider the pros and cons of breaking a child's heart before bringing them there. Adults can make their own decisions.
You totally just made me cry:(

Girl Guides can accomplish alot with the right incentive, I was a leader in Canada for a few years and I have seen the the results determined little girls can achieve. Whether they phsyically go to the shelter or not they can still aide these poor dogs, creating awareness, making blankets, food, towels etc. I think it is a wonderful idea to use this opportunity to educate these girls on the reality of situations like these. Although maybe a slightly cencored version for the young ones:(

[alibuch]

Jiyoung...


It's great that you want to get so many volunteers to go to the shelter. Many people on this site have been to the shelter and as Karen and Pukka have already said... it's a very overwhelming place. I'd been to many many shelters back the States and I thought those were bad. Shelters in the States are solid gold heaven compared to the "shelter" in Daejeon. As soon I walked into the greenhouse I started crying. It's nothing like what you're expecting, I'm sure.

Go visit and see.

And Karen... I think your idea about having the younger kids make adoption flyers is such a great idea! And with there being so many girls, maybe some good families will adopt some dogs.