Dog sleeping on your bed.. good or bad?

[jonomo]

I've read someplace.. or maybe I saw it on the Dog Whisperer.. that your dog should never sleep on your with you.. it confuses him and makes him think he is more dominant that you...

What are your thoughts on this?

Currently my dog either sleeps right outside our bedroom but is starting to sleep at the foot of our bed...

[cyrax]

Hello jonomo.
"No dogs in bed" is erring on the side of caution. You can allow your dog into your bed but ONLY when you know for sure that you are the alpha of the pack and that is not an easy thing for many people. The alpha of a pack has a special place (ex: bed) in the territory (your house) that no other member of the pack is allowed to go to or even sniff. This enforces the alpha's leadership. However the alpha owns everything in the territory including other members' sleeping area. With dogs there is no confusion. They are either the leader of the pack or a follower.
I suggest that you do no allow your dog to sleep in the bed. In fact I would suggest that you do not even allow him to sniff the bed. He can lie down near your bed. He cannot get into the bed or put his paw on the bed. In fact I do not allow my foster dogs to even enter my bed room. This enforces my position as the leader of the pack and also helps an adopter to avoid getting fur on his/her bed and bedroom. Some people are allergic to fur. Have some allergen free areas in the house helps a lot.
I use a dog crate to train my dogs. A dog crate is a very good training tool especially since it limits the movement of the dog when you cannot watch him/her. It also provides a good shelter for your dog.
The dog whisperer is a good show but unfortunately they do not show everything that happens to the dog or how Cesar manages to do certain things. This is for the simple reason that some animal lovers would consider certain corrections harsh. Dog whisperer is a politically correct show and I agree with 80% of how Cesar trains his dogs. More than dogs, I admire how he deals with humans. Dogs are easy to train if you are consistent. Can't say the same for humans :).
If you really want to watch a good dog training video try Ed Frawley's videos (www.leerburg.com). BTW Dog whisperer is NOT a dog training show. Dog Whisperer is about "fixing" bad behaviour of the dogs.

[Karen]

Hi Jonomo,

Your question is very good, I think about it when I hear about stricter people (like Cyrax's point of view) that maybe I'm too lax with the rules in my household. But that's just my household and unless I run into some major problems, I can't foresee any changes. So far so good though.

Our dog is a mini-schnauzer, ie. a terrier, and they have a tendency to be stubborn, and my girl can be. She's my first dog and I admit that I haven't been consistent with rules in the house (though my husband is better).

For the first month when after we got her, while we were housetraining her, she slept in her crate every evening (and whenever we left for a max of 4 hours), but it was right next to our bed (we slept on a yo on the floor). When she woke up I would take her out and immediately put her on her papers then return her to her crate. She was housetrained really quickly and loves her crate to this day, spends lots of time chilling out in there while we're home, etc. etc. The crate is great (though she is very nervous and cries when we leave and she is NOT in the crate. She is insecure without it, so if it's possible to be TOO crate trained, Sage is an example :?)

Anyway, since she's been housetrained we've let her sleep in our bed with us. Often she's under the covers, sometimes she hogs the pillow! Once I even woke up and she had her head on the pillow right next to mine, her arm over the covers, the rest of her tucked in, like a little kid! (I know Cyrax is gasping in horror :) ) Sage is not a dominant type, but she does know how much she can get away with (with me, a lot, with my husband, much less).

Now, Sage has her stubborn moments and I admit her flaws are caused by my inconsistencies enforcing rules, but overall she is a very obedient girl.
Would she be better behaved if I didn't let her sleep in bed with us? Maybe. But that would fall in line with me being more consistent with all the rules. ie, removing her food if she doesn't eat within 15 minutes, consistently correcting her when she barks inappropriately, etc. etc. But that's just not my household. Luckily she's a good girl and we haven't had any troubles I can't tolerate. If I did, I would make up a set of stricter rules and stick to them.

Basically, I think that it's up you to decide if you will allow your dog to sleep in your bed and if you won't, just be consistent. If you want a super-well disciplined dog then maybe you should set up the "no bed" rule in addition to other rules. For us, Sage is part of our family and she gets to sleep in the bed.

[cyrax]

Darn! Karen stop going to your IT school and start practising psychiatry.

[jonomo]

Uhmm yeah.. I have to agree with Cyrax here.. at first I wouldn't even allow my dog to come into my bedroom.. and he always obeyed... but whenever I work late, my wife felt better with the dog sleeping in the bedroom.. and he would jump onto the foot of the bed.. but he would immediately jump off and run out of the room when I came home..

As of late.. I've been allowing him to sleep below our bed.. or under it.. he still hesitates to come into the room.. and only comes in when I call him in... when my wife calls him in.. he just sits there and looks at me.. and waits for me to give him permission..

I hope that's enough to keep him inline.. hehe j/k.. he's a great dog..

One more thing.. what's this about removing his food after 15 minutes? I've never heard that before... my dog doesn't eat when we are there watching him.. he eats at night when were asleep.. so i leave food for him to eat all the time..

Something that bothers me about this is that Hobbes doesn't seem to POO or Pee 1~2 hours after he eats or drinks (as most people seem to say)... a good 12 hours seems to be his thing... he'll eat at night.. and poo in the morning.. AND he doesn't always poo outside....

Like this morning... I took him on his normal morning walk... about 30 minutes or so.. and he didn't poo... and as soon as I brought him back home.. he pooed in his spot.. how do I make him stop doing that?

The thing is that I got him from a shelter.. and at first he was very afraid and didn't trust people.. he still doesn't really eat around us... or goes to the bathroom (always in his spot) when we are not looking... maybe he's shy...

[pukka]

Oops ,we attached 2 beds next to eachother so we all can fit (cats
and dogs) though for the real night sleep , only 1 dog stays in bed with us
and the rest goes to their crate and the cats can sleep in their own bed
on the attached bed .

Jonomo , your dog has strange hours to eat . Is the dog alone during the
day ? Usually they are hungry when you get home and would be happy it
is dinner time . I suggest to add a very little canfood (meat or fish for dogs you can buy in every petstore) to the hard food and your dog might jump on the food right away .
If it works out OK , you might be able to walk the dog before you go to bed .
I feed my dogs at 8 for dinner and walk them at 10 . Walk your dog longer than
30minutes for the 1st time to poop outside . Once it works , your dog will be
waiting until you take him out .
Keep in touch !

[jonomo]

I don't think I've EVER seen Hobbes poo only 2 hours after he eats.. Here's how it normally works:
1. I feed him after our dinner, which is usually around 8
2. He stares at the food for a bit, maybe takes a nibble.
3. As soon as we go to bed I can hear him chowing down on the food, this is around 11 or midnight
4. He poos in the morning like 10 hours after he's eatin...

He sometimes poos during the morning walk.. sometimes doesnt... When he doesn't, he poos while i'm in the shower or something... very weird dog~

So what's this about only giving hiim food for 15 minutes?

[Karen]

Hi jonomo,

I'm on my way out of the house, I promise to write more later if this ends up seeming curt...

I heard that to establish your "alphaness" you should make your dog become dependent on you for food, so put the food dish down (after giving a command like "sit" or something else the dog must obey). Leave the dish for 15 minutes and then remove it again, no matter how much has been eaten. Then the dog must wait for you again to give him food at the next regularly scheduled meal time.

This to help reinforce you as "alpha", much like the "no dogs on the bed" scheme, to let your dog know who is leader.

However, your Hobbes is a special case. 1) he already treats you with deference so you have no reason to establish your alphaness further 2) he seems to have some insecurity regarding food.

I'm no expert, by far but my feeling is that your Hobbes needs the rules about bed (or whatever) in order to feel secure that you are the leader. But if he won't eat in front of you yet, and only eats in the evening (this may just be an old habit developed when he was living in the shelter and having to compete with other dogs for food), I don't know what effect forcing him to break his habit might have...

I have more to say but I've gotta go now, sorry. Also except for the training issue of Hobbes making a few mistakes in the house still, I don't think his weird schedule is cause for concern. Again, I'm no expert, but that's just his digestion schedule. Especially since he only eats at night....

More later!

Karen

[jonomo]

Thanks for the reply.. I think Hobbes knows I'm the man.. in fact.. i think he would submit to just about anyone..

He knows now not to jump on the bed... (sometimes my wife will call him up when I'm not around)... and he doesn't come into the room unless I give him permission.. so that's all good..

I was just worried about his eating.. but he seems to do alright when we're not looking.. I don't think I'll be taking away his food.. He did seem to have it pretty rough before coming into our household... but he's a great dog... and he fits in with our lifestyle great... we love the mutt.. hehe...

Thanks for everyones input on the matter....

[cyrax]

I make my dogs sit before I put the bowl down. They get their food only when I allow them to. I establish my "alphaness" (as Karen so lovingly put) not by making the dog sit but by having my meal before my dogs. WRT food that is the only way I ensure my rank order in the pack. An alpha eats before the lower ranking members. Making the dog sit before eating is just to ensure that the dog doesn't jump on me or gets too excited before eating. A jumping dog looks cute when it is a small breed. Imagine the same with an English Mastiff/Pyrenean Mountain Dog/Rottweiler/GSD. I encourage the dog to be stable by rewarding (feeding/putting the bowl down).

Jonomo do you want your dog to eat the food before you go on a walk or after? From what I am hearing Hobbes is definitely not dominant or aggressive. He may be a little afraid of people. So what you need to do is gain his trust and this you can do by being a consistent and fair leader.

You can fix the pooing problem by "catching him in act" and reprimanding/punishing him. In all probability a stern "NO" will fix the problem, but say "NO" without emotions but a deep voice. When he poops outside the house let him finish and then praise the heck out of him (maybe a treat will also be good). I would suggest that you do not let him out of your sight inside the house and always track him.

BTW why don't you have a crate for him? If you crate train him, you will achieve results much faster than otherwise. If the crate is the right size and he is in the crate when you cannot keep an eye on him, he will hold till he can actually get out of the crate because by nature dogs like to keep their den clean. That is assuming that he has the physical capability to hold for a while (puppies do not have a large enough buffer. Some medical conditions cause the dogs to lose control).

A suggestion wrt food - make your dog walk (running is better) till he cannot move any longer. The duration of the walk/run varies from dog to dog (not necessarily breed dependent) . Then take him home and give him some food (do not allow him jump on food, if he ever does that is). If he doesn't eat within 15 mins, take the food away. If he is still eating @ the end of 15mins let it be. He might go without food for a meal or two but then he will not die just because of that. Dogs will figure the routine pretty quickly when it comes to food you know :).

Keep the walking and the feeding times constant every day. If he has no prior medical condition, he will learn pretty fast to gulp the food down as quickly as he can. The day he finishes the food in time praise him a lot (and give him a treat).

[cyrax]

oops!! I started my post 6 hrs ago and finished it just now. Sorry for the unnecessary reply.

[Scarlet13]

I'm guilty of having my dogs in the bed with me. This was fine when it was just me but I realized it was slightly problematic now that I share my bed with my guy too. Oscar usually sleeps in the tiniest little ball at the foot of the bed, Pandora likes to lie against my back (the are golden retriever/boarder collie mixes...pretty big) and the poppit on my pillow, and some nights Mozart crawls in underneath my arm so I can cuddle him. As I said this was great until Terry slept over and happened to be in Pandora's spot, she didn't seem to mind much and just laid right down on top of him. :S Once she had him pinned she realized it when be a good time to make with the smooching (lol). Clearly we will have to change this when we get home.

Bibi started out sleeping with us but she now has her crate and her own bed which she sleeps in most nights, and we try to make sure she 'asks' before she can come up. The only nights we bring her up is when she is sitting in her bed freezing her tail off (this place is cold!) We only have one room and it is small so its really the only place we can all hang out.